Comments on: Markets In Sex, Redux http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/ Sex Blogging, Gratuitous Nudity, Kinky Sex, Sundry Sensuality Thu, 8 Jan 2009 01:56:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Linda http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1351 Linda Wed, 07 Jul 2004 03:41:07 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1351 My point was that just blaming "the worst countries" won't help solve the problem as much as blaming the actual perpetrators will. For example, everyone in the story which started this thread is Iranian: the girl, her abusive parents, the madam, the rapists, etc. Just blaming "the Iranians" lumps the victim in with the people abusing her! Treating a sub-Saharan African country as a monolith is even sillier, given that the current national borders are mostly lines between what was English land, what was Belgian land, etc. instead of between what was Yoruba land, what was Hausa land, etc. For example, in Kenya: mainstream Maasai elders praise FGM as authentic mainstream Gikuyu elders call FGM archaic mainstream Swahili elders call FGM barbaric (in both the new "barbaric = disgusting" sense and the old "barbaric = foreign" sense) So if one says "Kenyans are so hideous, they do FGM" then one's being unfair to progressive Maasai people, all but a few radical-reactionary Gikuyu people, and practically every Swahili person. My point was that just blaming “the worst countries” won’t help solve the problem as much as blaming the actual perpetrators will.
For example, everyone in the story which started this thread is Iranian: the girl, her abusive parents, the madam, the rapists, etc. Just blaming “the Iranians” lumps the victim in with the people abusing her!
Treating a sub-Saharan African country as a monolith is even sillier, given that the current national borders are mostly lines between what was English land, what was Belgian land, etc. instead of between what was Yoruba land, what was Hausa land, etc.
For example, in Kenya:
mainstream Maasai elders praise FGM as authentic
mainstream Gikuyu elders call FGM archaic
mainstream Swahili elders call FGM barbaric (in both the new “barbaric = disgusting” sense and the old “barbaric = foreign” sense)
So if one says “Kenyans are so hideous, they do FGM” then one’s being unfair to progressive Maasai people, all but a few radical-reactionary Gikuyu people, and practically every Swahili person.

]]> By: TheBoss http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1360 TheBoss Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:45:36 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1360 While overly broad, "the culture of the middle east" does hit many of the worst countries in terms of treatment of women. Of course, it leaves out some of the hideous african countries where some of sex practices seem designed specifically to spread AIDS. In this country (the US, that is) we've conquered most of the rights issues faced by women. Yes, there's a bit left to do but examples like this one show exactly how far we've come compared to the rest of the world. I'm an old-school feminist: precisely equal rights. Period. Every society that gives women the rights of men has experienced a profound increase peace and prosperity. While overly broad, “the culture of the middle east” does hit many of the worst countries in terms of treatment of women. Of course, it leaves out some of the hideous african countries where some of sex practices seem designed specifically to spread AIDS.
In this country (the US, that is) we’ve conquered most of the rights issues faced by women. Yes, there’s a bit left to do but examples like this one show exactly how far we’ve come compared to the rest of the world.
I’m an old-school feminist: precisely equal rights. Period. Every society that gives women the rights of men has experienced a profound increase peace and prosperity.

]]> By: Linda http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1356 Linda Tue, 29 Jun 2004 16:26:41 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1356 The root of the problem is a bunch of horrible customs, not just "the culture of the Middle East." Convincing someone to give up a horrible custom like "honour killing" is one thing. Convincing them to give up their whole entire culture ("honour killing" *and* shish kebabs *and* the Persian or Arabic language *and* the popularity of mint-flavored condoms and so on) is much more difficult and less necessary. I'd rather try to do the former, because it's more likely to work. And I like shish kebabs. ;) Besides, cultures and subcultures overlap a lot and contradict each other a lot, even the ones in the Middle East. There is no one "culture of the Middle East" in the first place (for example, Iran and Turkey are not an Arabic countries*).* They speak Persian in Iran, not Arabic (give or take a few immigrants and students of foreign languages). Arabic is more closely related to Hebrew while Persian is more closely related to Hindu. Sure, Persian uses the Arabic alphabet, but it's using a foreign alphabet the same way Zulu uses the Roman alphabet. The root of the problem is a bunch of horrible customs, not just “the culture of the Middle East.”
Convincing someone to give up a horrible custom like “honour killing” is one thing. Convincing them to give up their whole entire culture (”honour killing” *and* shish kebabs *and* the Persian or Arabic language *and* the popularity of mint-flavored condoms and so on) is much more difficult and less necessary. I’d rather try to do the former, because it’s more likely to work. And I like shish kebabs. ;)
Besides, cultures and subcultures overlap a lot and contradict each other a lot, even the ones in the Middle East. There is no one “culture of the Middle East” in the first place (for example, Iran and Turkey are not an Arabic countries*).* They speak Persian in Iran, not Arabic (give or take a few immigrants and students of foreign languages). Arabic is more closely related to Hebrew while Persian is more closely related to Hindu. Sure, Persian uses the Arabic alphabet, but it’s using a foreign alphabet the same way Zulu uses the Roman alphabet.

]]> By: John http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1357 John Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:42:30 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1357 The root of the problem is the culture of the middle east. Until arabs wake up an realize they are living in the 20th century, most of the women in those countries will continue to be treated like livestock or worse. The root of the problem is the culture of the middle east. Until arabs wake up an realize they are living in the 20th century, most of the women in those countries will continue to be treated like livestock or worse.

]]> By: asad http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1344 asad Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:44:46 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1344 I'll step in for a second to say that Iran is the only country in the middle east to have a state-sponsered condom factory. A course on sex education is mandatory before marriage. I’ll step in for a second to say that Iran is the only country in the middle east to have a state-sponsered condom factory. A course on sex education is mandatory before marriage.

]]> By: Justin http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1354 Justin Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:47:34 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1354 Seeing as everything else has been covered, I'll pipe up and say that when Marie Antionnette made the comment about bread and cake, cake was actually cheaper than bread, due to goverment price controls artificially inflating the cost of bread. Problem is, everyone simply assumes she was being a stupid, out of touch noble. Seeing as everything else has been covered, I’ll pipe up and say that when Marie Antionnette made the comment about bread and cake, cake was actually cheaper than bread, due to goverment price controls artificially inflating the cost of bread. Problem is, everyone simply assumes she was being a stupid, out of touch noble.

]]> By: Kristina http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1330 Kristina Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:11:09 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1330 "There's a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death 'is no real choice at all.'" Honestly, Bacchus, I simply do not understand how you can call me arrogant, especially when you preceded that comment with "Obviously neither alternative is freely chosen." How is what I said-- prostitution vs. death is no real choice-- different from you saying neither is a free will choice? Without free will, there is no ability to choose, it is only an illusion. It is the proverbial rock and a hard place, the lesser of two evils, Cylla and Caribdis. Do you think that fifteen year old Iranian girl is thinking, "Thank goodness I have a choice." or do you think she's thinking, "What other choice do I have?" You say we, as a society, don't have a right to make that choice for anyone (anyone, regardless of age?)-- and fine, I'll support the notion that we don't have right to take girls out of brothels and put them back with parents who will kill them. Forget our rights-- what are our obligations? Are we only obligated to legalize prostitution so these girls can escape parental abuse? Or are we obligated to go beyond that and find a way to not only stop the abuse but also protect them from all abuse, including what amounts to forced prostitution? I'm an idealist-- in an ideal world, a prison inmate wouldn't have to choose between gang-rape or prison bitch; in an ideal world, fifteen year old girls wouldn't have to choose between prostitution or death. In an ideal world, victims would be protected. Obviously, it's not an ideal world and I never once suggested either should be condemned for doing what they have to do to survive in the hell they live in. All I said is that we should give attention and effort to providing these girls with MORE CHOICES than prostitition. That is possible, believe it or not. Frankly, I think it is incredibly arrogant and a blatant disregard for humanity to say, "Well, at least she has a choice." I also find it curious that my question as to whether legalized prostitution should be a viable "choice" for abused fifteen year old American girls hasn't been addressed. Or are child prostitutes only something we should support in other countries? “There’s a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death ‘is no real choice at all.’”
Honestly, Bacchus, I simply do not understand how you can call me arrogant, especially when you preceded that comment with “Obviously neither alternative is freely chosen.” How is what I said– prostitution vs. death is no real choice– different from you saying neither is a free will choice? Without free will, there is no ability to choose, it is only an illusion. It is the proverbial rock and a hard place, the lesser of two evils, Cylla and Caribdis.
Do you think that fifteen year old Iranian girl is thinking, “Thank goodness I have a choice.” or do you think she’s thinking, “What other choice do I have?” You say we, as a society, don’t have a right to make that choice for anyone (anyone, regardless of age?)– and fine, I’ll support the notion that we don’t have right to take girls out of brothels and put them back with parents who will kill them. Forget our rights– what are our obligations? Are we only obligated to legalize prostitution so these girls can escape parental abuse? Or are we obligated to go beyond that and find a way to not only stop the abuse but also protect them from all abuse, including what amounts to forced prostitution?

I’m an idealist– in an ideal world, a prison inmate wouldn’t have to choose between gang-rape or prison bitch; in an ideal world, fifteen year old girls wouldn’t have to choose between prostitution or death. In an ideal world, victims would be protected. Obviously, it’s not an ideal world and I never once suggested either should be condemned for doing what they have to do to survive in the hell they live in. All I said is that we should give attention and effort to providing these girls with MORE CHOICES than prostitition. That is possible, believe it or not. Frankly, I think it is incredibly arrogant and a blatant disregard for humanity to say, “Well, at least she has a choice.”
I also find it curious that my question as to whether legalized prostitution should be a viable “choice” for abused fifteen year old American girls hasn’t been addressed. Or are child prostitutes only something we should support in other countries?

]]> By: Linda http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1336 Linda Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:57:40 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1336 First, thanks for fixing the duplicate post problem! :) On to the actual topics now... "There's a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death "is no real choice at all." It's worse than the apocryphal "let them eat cake" remark. "The peasants have no bread, and are forced to eat garbage lest they starve." "Garbage? They might catch plague! We must outlaw the eating of garbage at once..." Inaccurate analogy. Kristina never said that the kid should be arrested for prostitution, nor that the kid shouldn't have done what she did under those circumstances. "..."Society ought to provide those poor peasants with cake!"" What on earth do you have against Kristina's statements that the girl deserves *more* choices instead of just one or two almost equally brutal options? Sure you pay lip service to "a third, better choice" but then immediately mock it. Is it that the idea of a kid doing math homework in an orphanage is less "erotic" than the idea of a kid getting raped in a brothel? I thought this was a blog about sexy stuff (like National Penis Month, phone sex bloopers, prostitution by freely consenting adults, etc.), not a blog about blind hatred of everything nonsexual... :( p.s. Yes, the customers are raping that poor kid even if she could have chosen getting eaten by rats instead. You know, like the way we don't call "rape at gunpoint" an oxymoron. Remember when Matisse said "Unless someone is holding a gun to your head (or the head of your child), you're making a choice" instead of saying something like "if someone is holding a gun to your head, you're still making a choice between that someone's demands and the bullet"? First, thanks for fixing the duplicate post problem! :) On to the actual topics now…
“There’s a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death “is no real choice at all.” It’s worse than the apocryphal “let them eat cake” remark. “The peasants have no bread, and are forced to eat garbage lest they starve.” “Garbage? They might catch plague! We must outlaw the eating of garbage at once…”
Inaccurate analogy. Kristina never said that the kid should be arrested for prostitution, nor that the kid shouldn’t have done what she did under those circumstances.
“…”Society ought to provide those poor peasants with cake!”"
What on earth do you have against Kristina’s statements that the girl deserves *more* choices instead of just one or two almost equally brutal options? Sure you pay lip service to “a third, better choice” but then immediately mock it. Is it that the idea of a kid doing math homework in an orphanage is less “erotic” than the idea of a kid getting raped in a brothel?
I thought this was a blog about sexy stuff (like National Penis Month, phone sex bloopers, prostitution by freely consenting adults, etc.), not a blog about blind hatred of everything nonsexual… :(
p.s. Yes, the customers are raping that poor kid even if she could have chosen getting eaten by rats instead. You know, like the way we don’t call “rape at gunpoint” an oxymoron. Remember when Matisse said “Unless someone is holding a gun to your head (or the head of your child), you’re making a choice” instead of saying something like “if someone is holding a gun to your head, you’re still making a choice between that someone’s demands and the bullet”?

]]> By: kevin0726 http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1332 kevin0726 Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:07:36 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1332 Are you even reading everything I write? In the last post I said that I understand your point. I am not trying to be arrogant or rude and I am also not trying to say anything other than that particular statement, made PUBLIC, is going to have some sort of emotional impact on certain people. Her situation is, indeed, better. Not "vastly" better as you had originally stated. And I don't believe I ever said she didn't have the right to choose (you are putting words in my mouth), but she is not exactly in a place to make rational decisions (being underage, in addition to being terrified for her life). I just said that having that as an only option is very unfortunate and sad.I agree with Kristina's metaphor wholly. I really wouldn't called it a choice at all, therefore I am not saying that we should be making anyone's decisions for them. Yes, the less amount of suffering would be preferable, but could hardly be called quality of life in any way. And there are too many variables involved to make any sort of blanket statement based on a brief interview with someone, don't you think? I am glad that this is a lively topic. It is an issue that is obviously very emotional. Are you even reading everything I write? In the last post I said that I understand your point. I am not trying to be arrogant or rude and I am also not trying to say anything other than that particular statement, made PUBLIC, is going to have some sort of emotional impact on certain people.
Her situation is, indeed, better. Not “vastly” better as you had originally stated. And I don’t believe I ever said she didn’t have the right to choose (you are putting words in my mouth), but she is not exactly in a place to make rational decisions (being underage, in addition to being terrified for her life). I just said that having that as an only option is very unfortunate and sad.I agree with Kristina’s metaphor wholly. I really wouldn’t called it a choice at all, therefore I am not saying that we should be making anyone’s decisions for them. Yes, the less amount of suffering would be preferable, but could hardly be called quality of life in any way. And there are too many variables involved to make any sort of blanket statement based on a brief interview with someone, don’t you think? I am glad that this is a lively topic. It is an issue that is obviously very emotional.

]]> By: Bacchus http://www.erosblog.com/2004/06/23/markets-in-sex-redux/#comment-1349 Bacchus Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:01:35 +0000 http://www.erosblog.com/wp/?p=884#comment-1349 Kristina, your example of the inmate being forced to choose between cell-block gang rapes or being the "prison bitch" for one inmate is very much on point. Obviously neither alternative is freely chosen, but very likely the person in that situation still has an opinion as to which is better. There's still a choice to be made. I'm saying, you and I (and society) don't have the right to make that choice for anyone. Of course we should do whatever we can to offer a third, better choice, but that's not the point I was making here. There's a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death "is no real choice at all." It's <b>worse</b> than the apocryphal "let them eat cake" remark. "The peasants have no bread, and are forced to eat garbage lest they starve." "Garbage?They might catch plague! We must outlaw the eating of garbage at once. Society ought to provide those poor peasants with cake!" Bah. Kristina, your example of the inmate being forced to choose between cell-block gang rapes or being the “prison bitch” for one inmate is very much on point. Obviously neither alternative is freely chosen, but very likely the person in that situation still has an opinion as to which is better. There’s still a choice to be made. I’m saying, you and I (and society) don’t have the right to make that choice for anyone. Of course we should do whatever we can to offer a third, better choice, but that’s not the point I was making here.
There’s a breathtaking arrogance to the assertion that choosing prostitution over death “is no real choice at all.” It’s worse than the apocryphal “let them eat cake” remark. “The peasants have no bread, and are forced to eat garbage lest they starve.” “Garbage?They might catch plague! We must outlaw the eating of garbage at once. Society ought to provide those poor peasants with cake!”
Bah.

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