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	<title>Comments on: Sex Personals Massacre, Redux</title>
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	<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/</link>
	<description>Sex Blogging, Gratuitous Nudity, Kinky Sex, Sundry Sensuality</description>
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		<title>By: mathew</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10524</link>
		<dc:creator>mathew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10524</guid>
		<description>#1. Again, &quot;He did it too!&quot; does not constitute a legitimate excuse.

#4. The argument made by many, yourself included (or so it seemed to me), is that those who were committing adultery or misusing company resources deserved no sympathy for the treatment they got from Fortuny; that it was just punishment for their crimes. I was addressing that point.

#5. Clearly not a nonsequitur, and worthy of mention as you yourself then attempted the same rationalization in your response to #1.

I already discussed the issue of legal vs moral arguments. Laws are enacted in
part to codify society&#039;s moral judgements; it&#039;s trivial to reel off a list of
laws that exist purely because someone had a moral code that said something,
and got it written into law.  In fact, UK copyright law explicitly refers to
morality, talking about the &quot;moral rights&quot; of the creators of artworks.

Hence, the existence of law is at least circumstantial evidence that there is a
corresponding moral principle that is widely held. In the case of copyright,
I believe that you will find that most people believe that morally, someone
who creates an artistic work has the right to stop other people copying it and
selling the copies, meaning that there is a fundamental moral basis to the
existence of copyright law. (Of course, there are specifics of current
copyright law that may not be entirely supported by public morality.)

Anyway, you asked for moral reasons, you got them. I don&#039;t think that any of
the moral principles I outlined are unusual ones. The fact that you don&#039;t share
the same common moral code doesn&#039;t alter the fact that you were presented with
what you asked for.

If you meant to ask for moral reasons &lt;em&gt;according to &lt;strong&gt;your&lt;/strong&gt;
moral code&lt;/em&gt; why Fortuny was wrong, well, you should have said so.
I doubt you&#039;d have gotten any replies, since you already said that he was in
the right according to your moral code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#1. Again, &#8220;He did it too!&#8221; does not constitute a legitimate excuse.</p>
<p>#4. The argument made by many, yourself included (or so it seemed to me), is that those who were committing adultery or misusing company resources deserved no sympathy for the treatment they got from Fortuny; that it was just punishment for their crimes. I was addressing that point.</p>
<p>#5. Clearly not a nonsequitur, and worthy of mention as you yourself then attempted the same rationalization in your response to #1.</p>
<p>I already discussed the issue of legal vs moral arguments. Laws are enacted in<br />
part to codify society&#8217;s moral judgements; it&#8217;s trivial to reel off a list of<br />
laws that exist purely because someone had a moral code that said something,<br />
and got it written into law.  In fact, UK copyright law explicitly refers to<br />
morality, talking about the &#8220;moral rights&#8221; of the creators of artworks.</p>
<p>Hence, the existence of law is at least circumstantial evidence that there is a<br />
corresponding moral principle that is widely held. In the case of copyright,<br />
I believe that you will find that most people believe that morally, someone<br />
who creates an artistic work has the right to stop other people copying it and<br />
selling the copies, meaning that there is a fundamental moral basis to the<br />
existence of copyright law. (Of course, there are specifics of current<br />
copyright law that may not be entirely supported by public morality.)</p>
<p>Anyway, you asked for moral reasons, you got them. I don&#8217;t think that any of<br />
the moral principles I outlined are unusual ones. The fact that you don&#8217;t share<br />
the same common moral code doesn&#8217;t alter the fact that you were presented with<br />
what you asked for.</p>
<p>If you meant to ask for moral reasons <em>according to <strong>your</strong><br />
moral code</em> why Fortuny was wrong, well, you should have said so.<br />
I doubt you&#8217;d have gotten any replies, since you already said that he was in<br />
the right according to your moral code.</p>
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		<title>By: Bacchus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10142</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacchus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10142</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid we don&#039;t even agree on the second of your &quot;key points&quot;, Markus.  I don&#039;t agree that anyone needs &quot;a good cause&quot; to publish stuff that strangers send them over the internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid we don&#8217;t even agree on the second of your &#8220;key points&#8221;, Markus.  I don&#8217;t agree that anyone needs &#8220;a good cause&#8221; to publish stuff that strangers send them over the internet.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10140</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 08:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10140</guid>
		<description>I think we both agree on a few key points: namely, that it is foolish not to take any precaution when putting your personal information out there, and that it is not a condoneable action to publish said information without a good cause.

We&#039;ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.

You say that &quot;Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all [bad persons] will be, too.&quot; This is somewhat of a fallacy. I see no evidence that the virtual flashers will be proportionately more discouraged than ordinary folks. Intuitively this might seem so, but to assume it is a fallacy.

Fortuny&#039;s prank might have been a good one had he just withheld all of the sensitive information and just posted  select clips with the purpose of getting a chuckle or two. Doing it by posting everything out there is just irresponsible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we both agree on a few key points: namely, that it is foolish not to take any precaution when putting your personal information out there, and that it is not a condoneable action to publish said information without a good cause.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.</p>
<p>You say that &#8220;Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all [bad persons] will be, too.&#8221; This is somewhat of a fallacy. I see no evidence that the virtual flashers will be proportionately more discouraged than ordinary folks. Intuitively this might seem so, but to assume it is a fallacy.</p>
<p>Fortuny&#8217;s prank might have been a good one had he just withheld all of the sensitive information and just posted  select clips with the purpose of getting a chuckle or two. Doing it by posting everything out there is just irresponsible.</p>
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		<title>By: Bacchus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10104</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacchus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10104</guid>
		<description>Well, that&#039;s an argument anyway.  I&#039;ve explained about six times why I disagree, so I guess there&#039;s nothing to be gained from repeating myself.

On your last point, I think it cuts both ways.  Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all the virtual flashers and unavailable adulterers will be, too.  So the overall personals experience may *improve* for the person placing the ad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s an argument anyway.  I&#8217;ve explained about six times why I disagree, so I guess there&#8217;s nothing to be gained from repeating myself.</p>
<p>On your last point, I think it cuts both ways.  Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all the virtual flashers and unavailable adulterers will be, too.  So the overall personals experience may *improve* for the person placing the ad.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10100</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10100</guid>
		<description>Well suppose that Fortuny had done this by using a newspaper personal as his vehicle. People would have written him letters, and he would have them posted them on the internet or by taking out a full-page ad in the newspaper.

Surely you agree with me that the implicit assumption is reasonable in this case. People expect personals and letters in general to be kept private.

Now, tell me how the internet magically makes the same behaviour ethical. It doesn&#039;t. The same behaviour is still just as unethical as it was before. Sure, it is easier to copy and post the information, but that doesn&#039;t make it any less wrong. 

You claim that expecting the same standards to apply on the net is unreasonable. I would counter with the fact that how right or wrong a deed is does not depend on the vehicle that was used commit the deed in question. To hold people to the same behavoriall standarrd and expect a certain courtesy of them on- as well ass offline is not unreasonable in my opinion. I do understand your argument, but I do not agree with it.

You and I may both agree that it&#039;s foolish to post one&#039;s personal information to someone you don&#039;t trust. This may be so. However, that does not mean that anyone has the moral right to publish what you&#039;ve written to them in confidence. Just because you can do something does not make it right.

So, where is the harm in all this? As others have posted, this is a multipronged issue. The first is the people this directly affects, namely the poor saps that took Fortuny&#039;s bait. These may be divided in two distinct camps: Those that were harmed because they were exposed to loved ones, coworkers or acquintances, and those that were harmed by losing their faith in the personal system.

I am sure that marriages were wrecked because of this episode. Perhaps those that posted under the nose of their wives deserved it, but I would still not like Fortuny to be the judge, jury and executioner in that case. Besides them, there are those who&#039;s lives were made just a little bit harder by being outed. In some conservative circles, BDSM is not merely frowned upon but practicioner may find themselves ostracized completely.

Besides those that were directly harmed, there is the larger question of people being more wary of using personal sites. This may not seem like a problem for you, but I think people should be free to pursue happiness whichever way they choose as long as they hurt noone. If someone is discouraged from answering a personal due to this debacle, it is a clear loss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well suppose that Fortuny had done this by using a newspaper personal as his vehicle. People would have written him letters, and he would have them posted them on the internet or by taking out a full-page ad in the newspaper.</p>
<p>Surely you agree with me that the implicit assumption is reasonable in this case. People expect personals and letters in general to be kept private.</p>
<p>Now, tell me how the internet magically makes the same behaviour ethical. It doesn&#8217;t. The same behaviour is still just as unethical as it was before. Sure, it is easier to copy and post the information, but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less wrong. </p>
<p>You claim that expecting the same standards to apply on the net is unreasonable. I would counter with the fact that how right or wrong a deed is does not depend on the vehicle that was used commit the deed in question. To hold people to the same behavoriall standarrd and expect a certain courtesy of them on- as well ass offline is not unreasonable in my opinion. I do understand your argument, but I do not agree with it.</p>
<p>You and I may both agree that it&#8217;s foolish to post one&#8217;s personal information to someone you don&#8217;t trust. This may be so. However, that does not mean that anyone has the moral right to publish what you&#8217;ve written to them in confidence. Just because you can do something does not make it right.</p>
<p>So, where is the harm in all this? As others have posted, this is a multipronged issue. The first is the people this directly affects, namely the poor saps that took Fortuny&#8217;s bait. These may be divided in two distinct camps: Those that were harmed because they were exposed to loved ones, coworkers or acquintances, and those that were harmed by losing their faith in the personal system.</p>
<p>I am sure that marriages were wrecked because of this episode. Perhaps those that posted under the nose of their wives deserved it, but I would still not like Fortuny to be the judge, jury and executioner in that case. Besides them, there are those who&#8217;s lives were made just a little bit harder by being outed. In some conservative circles, BDSM is not merely frowned upon but practicioner may find themselves ostracized completely.</p>
<p>Besides those that were directly harmed, there is the larger question of people being more wary of using personal sites. This may not seem like a problem for you, but I think people should be free to pursue happiness whichever way they choose as long as they hurt noone. If someone is discouraged from answering a personal due to this debacle, it is a clear loss.</p>
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		<title>By: Bacchus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10096</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacchus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10096</guid>
		<description>Markus, you haven&#039;t come to grips with my argument that the &quot;implicit assumption&quot; was unreasonable.

Obviously the assumption existed, or folks wouldn&#039;t be outraged.  But it&#039;s not a reasonable assumption in the internet context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Markus, you haven&#8217;t come to grips with my argument that the &#8220;implicit assumption&#8221; was unreasonable.</p>
<p>Obviously the assumption existed, or folks wouldn&#8217;t be outraged.  But it&#8217;s not a reasonable assumption in the internet context.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus</title>
		<link>http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10094</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.erosblog.com/2006/10/08/sex-personals-massacre-redux/#comment-10094</guid>
		<description>Bacchus: The ethical violation is clear. The messages were sent under the implicit assumption that they were to be kept private. Online participation in a public forum is by definition public. E-mails are no more public than letters.

Now, you might say that there is nothing about letters that are inherently private. Yet, letters are protected by law until the recipient gets them. There is an assumption that the letters are private, and most correspondence works using this assumption as a basis. If the replies to the personals would have been meant to be public, they would have been posted publically, such as at a bbs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bacchus: The ethical violation is clear. The messages were sent under the implicit assumption that they were to be kept private. Online participation in a public forum is by definition public. E-mails are no more public than letters.</p>
<p>Now, you might say that there is nothing about letters that are inherently private. Yet, letters are protected by law until the recipient gets them. There is an assumption that the letters are private, and most correspondence works using this assumption as a basis. If the replies to the personals would have been meant to be public, they would have been posted publically, such as at a bbs.</p>
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