“Man Talk” As I Have Experienced It
Given that mendacious claims about the things men routinely say to each other have recently become central to what passes for political discourse in this country, I am moved to share my highly individual impressions and experiences. The disclaimer here is that I am pushing fifty, I live in red-state heck, and I don’t know many men who are a great deal younger than myself, although I know many who are older. Mine is a small slice of American male life, not any kind of representative sample.
But here’s how man-to-man conversations about women have tended to break down over my lifetime:
- Nothing gets said about women that wouldn’t be said in their presence: a bare majority of conversations, call it 51%-plus.
- Things are said about women that wouldn’t be said in their presence, but not sexual things; examples would be open discussion about how a relationship is going, indirect guy banter that that boils down updating each other on relationship statuses without openly addressing those questions, or whining and commiseration that parses to “bitches be crazy” with varying degrees of affection: maybe 30% of conversations.
- Sexual talk (possibly frank but usually indirect) that is basically about who is getting any, is it any good, and is it “worth” the various costs, be they financial, emotional, or measured in increments of lost personal autonomy: perhaps 10% of conversations.
- “Locker room” type talk about women not present or in view, concerning whether she’s hot, exactly which parts of her are hot, who would like to do what with her, who wouldn’t touch that with your dick: a maximum of 5% of conversations, and that’s stretching it. This 5% of conversations is objectifying but the underlying fantasies being shared are consensual; the often-ludicrous assumption is that the women under discussion would be up for it, and there’s no predatory overtone except to whatever arguable extent that objectification itself is predatory. This is also the first part of the breakdown where the conversations are likely to be initiated by a fairly small subset of one’s male acquaintances; absolutely “not all men” want to have these conversations but it’s fairly normal to play along with the ones who do, especially when they are of higher status or have economic power in your life.
- “Locker room” talk as above, only with explicit rape-culture added, and more often concerning women who are in view but not in earshot. Less “I’d like to fuck her in the ass” and more “I’d like to catch her in a dark alley.” Heavy objectification (“look at those tits walking down the street!”) and often violence (“sure she’ll talk to you, just slap her face to get her attention”) and rape “jokes” (acknowledging and dismissing as irrelevant the certainty that the women mentioned wouldn’t be up for it) feature prominently. This is a tiny percentage of all conversations — 1%, maybe 2% maximum — and when these conversations happen they are invariably initiated by “that guy”, one of the several special kinds of assholes that every man knows. I have also once or twice also encountered cliques of men (in my cases these were workplace cliques in blue-collar workplaces) where really knuckle-dragging sex talk was used to establish and demarcate in-group and out-group boundaries. In a group where two or more men are enthusiastically talking like this a higher-status man will usually change the subject or explicitly tell them to knock it off; if they are the higher status men, others will usually separate themselves from the conversation as soon as practicable.
For calibration purposes, the currently-notorious bus conversation between Donald Trump and Billy Bush falls squarely within the bounds of that 2% of conversations in the fifth category; however it’s among the mildest of such conversations.
I don’t know “all men”; I just know the men that I know. These are my impressions. Make of them what you will.
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I am a mid-40s man, originally from the south but living in California for 20 years, for whatever that’s worth.
I agree in general with your categories, but I *disagree* with your assessment that Mr. Trump’s comments on tape with Mr. Bush are “mild” for the ultimate category. I grant you that what he was talking about was not as explicit as I’ve heard, but what he was talking about (he claimed) was *things he has actually done*. “Man I’d like to get HER in a dark alley” is a lot tamer to me than “I grab girls by the pussy and there’s nothing they can do about it” (admittedly paraphrasing).
It’s absolutely true that there’s a lot of words that are used that are worse than Mr. Trump’s. But his explicit admission of actual historical sexual assault I think is worse than the aspirational nature of most “locker room talk.”
DeeAre, you make a very good point. You’re right that I was talking more about tone than substance, and the substance here is right up there in “worst of the worse” territory.
so I am 55 and spent 14 years in the Military and I must be quite sheltered because i have NEVER heard anyone saying anything like “Man I’d like to get her in a dark alley” in casual ‘locker room’ conversations. I’ve heard plenty of comments about wanting to do various things but i have just never heard anyone make a comment that seems quite so ‘rapey’.
did you actually listen to the entire taped conversation or just the ‘sound bites’ on the news? – he certainly did NOT say anything close to “and there’s nothing they can do about it”… his comment about
“even grab them by the pussy” was accompanied by the phrase “and when you’re a star they let you do it” – Not to defend the statement as it is an incredibly arrogant mindset that seems to also affect ‘rock stars’ and ‘athletes’ and ‘politicians’ alike; probably because there ARE a lot of women that ‘allow’ exactly what he suggested… certainly not all but clearly it happens enough to give these nitwits a bloated sense of self worth but it does seem a lot milder than “man i’d like to get her in a dark alley”. Arrogant self entitled blowhard is a lot milder than ‘rapist’.
Personally I think he’s a horrible choice for president for many reasons but Hillary is also a horrible choice for a whole slew of other reasons.. we really need a “None of the above” option on the ballot because both of the major candidates are truly horrible choices to a far greater extent than the ‘usual’ horrible choices we’re stuck with every 4 years.