Consensual Spankings For Feminists
I’ve commented before (most notably in the comments to this post about the production of spanking porn) that I don’t have much time for so-called feminists who can’t respect a woman’s sexual decisions. When feminists stop standing up for the choices women make, I stop recognizing them as feminists, it’s that simple.
Thus there’s some interest to be found in this Spanking and Feminism thread over at Spanking Blog. The post itself chides kinky men who won’t take ownership of their kinkiness, who can’t admit they want to spank and dominate for the fun of it, so they instead pretend (to themselves and to the world) that the women they are spanking are weak inferior creatures who would be lost without the “guidance and discipline” these ever-so-benevolent dudes are offering.
As discussion simmered in the comments, ranging wider and wider as discussions of BDSM and feminism tend to do, along came someone claiming to “respect individual choices” while simultaneously arguing that “it’s really hard to seperate out cultural expectations and personal choices.” Which, translated, means something like “You say you chose to do that, but I don’t believe you, and thus I’m free to condemn your choice.” I enjoyed the response:
No, it’s really not hard to separate out personal choices from cultural expectations. When someone says “This is my choice” you respect that, absolutely, or you just became part of the problem. If you retain niggling reservations, if you’re willing to question the individual’s self report of her choice, then you are failing to respect her personal choice and you are claiming, in effect, that you know better than the individual. Viewed charitably, the claim is still a version of “Your society has made it impossible for you to act as as a self-actualized individual adult human; you’re so messed up that you can’t even correctly determine or report what you want.” That’s an infantilizing, disempowering, patronizing claim and although it’s often made by folks who claim the badge of feminism, it’s no part of a true feminism that I could respect.
Just so.
Shorter URL for sharing: http://www.erosblog.com/?p=1583
*Claps* Bravo! That was wonderfully put and better than many similar arguments i have heard before. And they say the internet is full of idiots and degenerate perverts;)
Cheers! That’s one of the core arguments used by selective feminists against sex work, the old “You’ve got a right to make your own decisions, unless you disagree with me – then you’re obviously incompetent” thing. Fun to see it shot down by fellow spankos…
Cheers!
Interestingly, this is, of course, an old argument; as old as the ancient Greeks and classical logic. I’m not sure what the Greek or Latin is for this fallacy, but I do remember this anecdote:
John Cardinal Henry Newman, famed convert from the Church of England to the Church of Rome, was arguing with a former colleague (Anglican, of course), when the former colleague claimed that Newman’s arguments could not be taken seriously because Newman could be expected to lie for Rome. Newman, of course, shot back that the validity of any of their arguments could be decided by the opponent or the audience. He also noted that this claim of disingenuousness made any kind of debate impossible by denying any implicit claim to argument in good faith. Newman called this “poisoning the well of discourse.”
This does not mean that you, I, sex workers or feminists cannot be biased; bias is a fact like any other and we all suffer from it. But we must think of the utter grandiosity of feminist claims that “false patriarchal consciousness” poisons all we say: they are indeed saying that we must be their wards and that all who disagree with their “true, womanist” perspective must be made so.
We don’t allow this claim when the born-again Christians or the Scientologist Theta Clears say it. Why should we allow some feminists to do so?
So, if someone claims you’re a dumb tool in someone else’s hands, try giving them this argument. Thanks for reading.
We love a good spanking around our blog, but I have sympathy for what you’ve dismissed as the so-called feminist. It’s a stone-cold fact that all of our media images of bdsm (and plenty of porn) portray it as an aspect of sexual violence rather than the consensual act I hope it is for most. It’s tough to break a link that’s made so relentlessly. It wasn’t until I’d met a lot of women (and men) who enjoy the spank that I could let go of my doubts. I’d go 180 degrees from your commentors here and their love of “true feminism” -whatever that might be – and say not only is it hard to seperate personal choice from cultural convention – it’s *impossible* to do so. I’ll never know what’s in the next guy’s head for sure, and to claim there is no connection between cultural pressures and personal choice is ridiculous. If that was true we wouldn’t have any reason to wonder “if so-and-so is in the closet.” As for spanking, all I could do to relieve my doubts was get to know the people in my scene over time – and what I’ve found isn’t a threat to what I’d call feminism.
Gander, I wouldn’t argue that people make choices without being influenced by their culture. However, I refuse to invest that cultural influence with the least smidgeon of significance when it comes to evaluating whether choices are freely made. When you deny that a woman’s choices were freely made because of the culture she lives in, you are in effect claiming that she’s incapable of being a free and independent being with the right to control her own destiny. That’s one face of modern feminism, and it’s a very ugly one indeed.
It’s funny, my experience (as a 30-something straight man who has been with women born in the 1960s) is that the cultural bias goes the other way: I have been with multiple women, including my life partner, who enjoy a bit of bottoming. However, after all those womens studies classes in college, it took years for my partner to be comfortable relating to a man from such a position.
I’d say any woman under 50 who didn’t grow up in a cultural backwater is going to be naturally “cultured” to reject BDSM, prostitution, and all that other stuff. So maybe it’s these stereotypical anti-sex feminists who have been culturally conditioned to where they are not making a rational choice?
[For the record, that last sentence is rhetorical. I’m with Bacchus on this one.]
Bacchus,
I consider myself to be both a practicing feminist and an active spanko. I see no conflict between these two positions.
The key for me is that I chose this lifestyle freely and without duress. I find it very empowering to be able to live as I wish, even if, ironically, it involves loaning that power to my husband on occasion.
This arrangement represents fulfillment and self-actualization, at least by my definition. I am free to explore my full potential. For that opportunity, I am grateful to the suffragettes and all the great women (and men) who fought for my rights.
However, I have no intention of going any direction but forward. The NOW crowd has served their purpose. In this millenium, I am ready to embrace new, broader visions of feminism and of women. We can be both strong and sexual, and that is as it should be.
To take this conversation somewhat off-course (while still keeping it relevant!), let’s look at something else that a lot of feminists tend to look at suspiciously: a woman’s decision to become a stay-at-home wife or mother, sacrificing a promising career to do so.
This is often called “choice feminism” (or the opt-out revolution), and its general message is that feminists have done enough, the feminist movement is dead, etc. — so women are now freely choosing to stay home, sacrificing their careers.
While I agree wholeheartedly that, especially at an individual level, no one else — feminist or otherwise — should be deciding what I and my wife can do (be it in the bedroom or in the kitchen), at a more macro level, there is still a lot of unbalanced cultural influence to which we are turning a blind eye.
In other words, yes — anyone who would think it in their domain to decide what someone else’s tastes and preferences should be is an asshat. On the other hand, the significance and import of cultural influence *cannot* be dismissed.
(A decent — if largely biased — article against the notion of choice feminism can be found at [deleted — no urls in comments] )
A little bit conflicted in that last paragraph, aren’t you anonymous?
Let’s not get too far afield, folks — remember this is a sex blog after all.
well put! :satisfied:
I will always question people’s motivations behind their decisions. To argue that someone’s free choice therefore equals a good choice is a little naive, at the very least.
Murders happen, rapes happen, crime happens, genocides happen, and they all stem from free choice.
I’m not stating I agree with SOME feminists’ assertions that submitting to BDSM ergo is flying in the face of advances made by women in the last three decades, because that’s out and out bullshit. I’m simply stating I think the argument could hold more water than it seems it is.
But yes, it’s getting to be a further afield discussion of your argument’s merits, but I simply wanted to state that CHOICE does not equate intelligence.
These people arguing against others’ choices in areas that hurts no one but themselves, and only in a “leisure” way (that perhaps some of us cannot relate to) is certainly as offensive as those who would judge another’s sexual preferences based solely on a book written a couple thousand years ago.
I don’t know when people will start judging their own behaviour first, and worrying about others’ later. I don’t know when it became more important to focus on others’ lifestyles than our own. (And you look at some of these vacuous existences led by these so-called activists trying to speak to the greater good, and you see why they need to focus their attentions on others. Sigh.)
But I’ll always, always define myself as a feminist. Just not THAT kind of one. They give me a bad fucking name, and I, for one, really resent it.
I am both a proud and fierce feminist and a happy and sassy sub. Anyone who can’t wrap her–or his–mind around that combination can kiss my well-spanked ass.
Self-righteous knee-jerk folks, regardless of their affiliations, make me grow a big wet one. Seriously.
“To argue that someone’s free choice therefore equals a good choice is a little naive, at the very least.”
Steff, where’d that come from? Nobody here’s arguing that free choices are always good ones. We’re talking here about people (claiming to be feminists) who assert that women lack the ability to *make* free choices. If you value liberty, you can’t be claiming that folks lack the ability to freely choose; you can’t be claiming that their apparent choices weren’t really free. When they say “I chose this, so fuck off” you can’t be saying “No, really, you didn’t choose it, you’re not competant or capable enough to make that choice.”
Okay, so I wandered off on a tangent there.
*blush*
It happens. “My bad,” to quote the lamest idiom of the last decade.
This is a topic I’ve wrestled with (and blogged about) often. As a strong woman who loves to be sexually dominated, my journey to where I am now has been fraught with difficulty.
I am a feminist. I say so unashamedly. I’m a feminist who loves to be tied up with a six foot bullwhip and flogged with it as my partner orders me to suck his cock. This took some getting used to because of the big gender role issues it pushed for me.
But I’m still a strong woman, I still kick ass and no one does ANYTHING to me without my consent. Feminism is my consent.
I get hit from both sides for what I do (namely my sex writing) and who I am as a sexual submissive. This used to infuriate me. Now I just do my own thing and happily so. Cause in the end, I’m the only one whose opinion counts.
And I love to hit the “submit” button
I can see how this is a tricky issue for some people, but personally I would say there’s a very simple way to reach a conclusion.
Does it feel good? Yes? Then what’s the problem?
Imagine getting over the taboo, coming to terms with the fact that parents and peers might not approve if they knew, finding a partner you can trust, discovering an activity you really enjoy… and then being told you only enjoy it because you’ve been socially conditioned that way.
Not only is this patronising, I think it misses the point. If it’s enjoyable, who cares how that particular pattern got woven into your brain?
They can fight the feminist fight, sure, but if there’s indoctrination going on then attack that at source, and leave us brainwashed, downtrodden women to enjoy a good spanking.
I’m a femenist, and i definately don’t have a problem with getting spankings. I would only have a problem with it if my boyfriend forcefully spanked my bottom against my will. Btw, does anyone have any pointers on how to enhance my spankings?
Note to Merie:
You ask: “…does anyone have any pointers on how to enhance my spankings?”
Er… Do you mean like tie your wrists to your ankles and a blindfold across your eyes? …or do with a fully inserted butt plug? …or maybe try it in front of an audience of friends or strangers? …or have a group (either all girls, or all guys, or mixed genders…)hold you down? …or slather your cheeks with peppermint oil or menthol? …or do it in front of a video camera? …or maybe a combination of all of the above in the same session? …or blog about it afterward on Erosblog?