Orgasmic Rape In Fiction
Offered for discussion, an excerpt from “Nicole Gets An Education” by Vulgus. It (the excerpt, not the story, which is very long and somewhat tedious in the common manner of free internet sex fiction) is a short fictional account of a woman who has her best orgasm ever while being raped, so some of you may want to pass it by:
I am very aware, however, that the second best orgasm I ever had was when Bill Harris was making love to me. He held my hands over my head in one of his strong hands and I felt totally helpless. He stared into my eyes and I felt well and truly taken. He was large and strong and I felt overpowered. It was very exciting.
My best orgasm, however, was when I said “No” to Tom Phillips. We had gone out to dinner and spent a little time at a club. I had to get up early so we couldn’t stay too long. He grudgingly took me home and somehow wormed his way into my new apartment. It was my only experience with ‘date rape’. He took control as soon as my door closed. We had been dating for a month or so and we had sex a couple of times. Tonight, though, I was not in the mood. I was tired and a little pissed at him for being such an ass.
But he started pushing me toward my couch and pulling my clothes off. I was fighting him off, but not screaming or trying to hurt him. Finally he got tired of it and he used the cloth belt from my dress to tie my hands behind my back and he pulled my dress down to my elbows and pulled by bra up over my breasts and roughly mauled them while he held me close and forced his tongue into my mouth. I was struggling and begging him to stop, but he just ignored me.
Finally he pushed me to the floor and bent me over the sofa. He pulled my dress up in back and ripped my panties off violently. Then he held me down while he unbuckled his belt and slid it out of his belt loops.
As soon as it was free he doubled it over and started beating my ass. As he was beating me he was yelling at me, “Don’t you ever say no to be again, god damn it. You fucking tease, you bitches are all alike. You just use men to get what you want and send them home with blue balls and think that it is just great fun. Fucking bitch!”
I was crying hysterically, but he didn’t care, he must have beat my ass for several minutes before he pulled his pants off and raped me from behind.
I knelt there helplessly, my hands tied behind my back, his hand holding my hair in his firm grip and pulling my head up so that he could see my face while he fucked me. His other hand kept moving under me and squeezing and pinching my by breasts and my nipples. It was horrible. And I came harder than I had ever come in my life! Over and over. I lost track of how many times I came. I had never been so aroused in my life. Some of those rape stories I read on the internet flashed through my mind as Tom violently raped me and I screamed in pleasure.
Tom finally came in me. He stood up and wiped his cock clean in my hair. Then he dressed and left without ever saying another word. It took me almost fifteen minutes to get my hands free!
I sat on my dress on the floor for a long time sobbing and sad and furious and confused.
Finally I got up and took a shower and as I washed my sore body I pictured what had happened tonight in my mind and as I washed my sore pussy I was on the edge of another orgasm. Well, I had no reason to disappoint me, so I rubbed myself until I came again. But then I was mad at myself for doing it.
This excerpt is a fairly stark and unequivocal example of a blindingly common meme — the meme of the woman who is overpowered by brute male force, raped with a modicum of violence, and, on a sexual level at least, enjoys it.
There are plenty of controversies swirling around this meme. Many men, for example, enjoy pointing out that it’s a predominantly female fantasy, at least measured by sales dollars — because, lightly prettied up, it’s at the heart (or somewhere lower) of an entire genre of commercial fiction marketed to and mostly consumed by women. In certain feminist circles, this fused grenado gets lit and tossed back over the wall by means of various arguments to the effect that the fantasy is thrust upon women or defensively adopted by them in response to the miscellaneous oppressive mechanisms of patriarchy.
But my interest is not in the question of whether the meme is prevalent — for it surely is — or whether it is popular with women — for it surely is that, also. Readers of this blog will know by now that I am predictable to this extent: memes expressed in erotic fiction, consumed and enjoyed as such, will attract no condemnation from me.
No, my question is: What do you think is the propagandistic effect, if any, of the meme? Do you think expressions of it are intended to convince (or, regardless of intent, do have the effect of convincing) anyone (male or female) that real world rapes are less evil or pernicious than they actually are? In other words, does fiction like this have the intent or effect of reducing the power of “No”?
Of course the forces of censorship — against which ErosBlog lives in opposition — are quick to say yes, and to assume that a “yes” should end the conversation. I think erotic expression is important enough to defend even in the face of real-world negative consequences, could they be established, so I will doubtless continue to oppose censorious impulses. But it remains an important question. Is there danger in the expression of such fantasies? And if so, what’s the appropriate reaction, given the toxic sexual pressure cooker environment you get when a society chooses repression and censorship?
Shorter URL for sharing: https://www.erosblog.com/?p=2152
That’s a tricky one.
My simple, honest emotional reaction to the extract was that it turned me on, albeit with a twinge of guilt. I don’t have any specific rape fantasies, but I admit I enjoy being pinned down or restrained so naturally it flicked the right switches for me.
Why did I just say “admit”? As if there’s something wrong with that in a loving relationship?
As propaganda, it could be taken to encourage the notion that “it’s ok, because she enjoyed it, silly girl.” It’s also set in the comfort of her own home, with someone she’s slept with before, which seems to soften the edges and blur the lines between consensual sex and rape. Its effect (if not its purpose) is to paint a grey area between the starkly contrasting YES and NO options.
But no still means no. I can’t imagine anyone using a story like this as justification for ignoring a “no”.
Yes, we should be able to read this sort of thing, and no it should not be censored, because the fact that I felt guilt as I enjoyed reading it shows that the underlying truth – that a girl is being raped – cannot be negated by any amount of sweeteners in the story.
It is indeed a tricky one.
Personally, I think the solution is education. The differences between fantasy and reality, and where the line lies between the two ought to be discussed far more often. How about pure fiction, or pure rape, or violent porn? how do these all fit on the spectrum? what effect do they have on the reader? will anyone take it as validation that rape is okay and women do love it really? what would we need to do to prevent that? in what kind of context is sharing these fantasies okay? in what context would that be inappropriate? etc etc etc.
I’m not sure at what point in the education process it would be most suitable, but these discussions do need to happen somewhere. We shouldn’t be able to avoid actually thinking about it and then reacting when something pushes our emotional hot-buttons. That is doing sexuality in all its glory and complexity a huge disservice. Gem – if this story had been more subtle and insiduous and offensive to you, would you then have said it would be okay to censor?
I do not think that stories like this (however offensive they sometimes are) are in themselves harmful, but our whole framework of thinking about sex is b0rked and that is what needs to be corrected.
I think that this is primarily a fantasy meme. You don’t hear this so often in nonfiction accounts of rape. At least not in my experience.
I also think that whether or not, reading this turns people on or makes them think that rape is sexy, the idea that men would interpret this to mean that women will thank them for raping them seems unlikely. Orgasms can be nice, but for someone else to demand that we have orgasms for our own good against our wishes seems to be besides the point.
I think that you can eroticize it however you want, but that most people’s moral code involves not making decisions for other people regardless of whether they think it would be good for them. So while this is fertile material for role play or fiction, noone argues mostly that no means yes because an orgasm is more important that a person’s self determination. When it comes down to it, even in the fantasies, the woman overall in the end, all said and done, while possibly orgasm sated, is unhappy and pissed off at the experience.
People generally want thier sex to be a net positive.
At least I hope not.
To be
it is a fantasy
i’m reminded of African-American’s using the n word
the writer/fantastist is in complete control
which clearly is the mirror opposite of the reality of rape
rape is about power
the rapist takes power
the writer/fantastist has all the power and surrenders none yet plays with the meme and scratches an itch
the progandistic effect on rapists or potential rapists?
i don’t honestly know but I suspect none. I believe they commit rape to feel empowered, to feel dominant over all women and to attempt to exorcise their own personal inadequecies. They are angry at women in general and feel emasculated and thus for them rape is an attempt, which can never succeed long term but only provides temporary respite, to redress this.
This fantasy meme provides a sort of post facto justification but I suspect such individuals would grasp at any justification to defend what they would do anyway.
I do not believe it is a crime about women other than it is a crime committed against women (i do not underestimate that) it is a crime caused by patriarchy and individual male inadequacy in dealing with the conflicts of patriarchy. It is a crime against the autonomy of the individual where a man sees it as within his patriarchal rights to violate a woman’s autonomy. He knows best about what she wants, needs, desires. And this is in spite of what she articulates. She says “no” but he knows she means “yes”, he can mysteriously read her secret desire and asorted bullshit. I know a woman may or may not mean “no” when she says “no” but if there aren’t any other safe words in place and agreed before hand to explore that particular hinterland then whatever a man may interpret or assume is actually meant by that “no” is irrelevant. If a woman has said “no” that’s final.
I really don’t know what to make of it. I do know some women want to be forced. True story: a very long time ago, in college, I took a girl out and, when things had gotten pretty hot and heavy, she told me to stop. I did, and the next day she publicly humiliated me for not having forced her, mocking me as a wimp.
I appreciate the thoughtful replies, you guys are awesome!
I brought this up in part because I know people (serious, thoughtful people of good will) who would think a story like this is “bad” (not necessarily needing to be censored, but certainly a social evil). And their reasoning would be something like this:
1) We live in a world that has rapists and potential rapists;
2) Nobody is evil in their own mind, even rapists have self-justifications they rely on;
3) A meme like this may do primary duty as a harmless fantasy, but its presence in the culture can be used by somebody inclined to rape to justify their crime in their own mind — “she’ll secretly enjoy it, the women in all those bodice-rippers always do, I’ll be doing her a favor!”
4) Therefore responsible people ought not to spread the meme (or, in the extreme thought police mode: responsible people ought not to fantasize about this at all).
I’m quite uncertain about whether the reasoning in #3 has much force, and I think I must ultimately respond to this whole line of attack with a “memes don’t rape people, people rape people” sort of shrug. Whatever you may think of the controversy from which I stole that mantra, freedom of thought is as fundamental an individual right as anyone could postulate, and memes are the vocabulary of thought.
I think context is key here. Most well balanced people understand that some fantasy’s only link with reality is that a real person liked to think of it that way in a fictional context. Most people do not read things like this and think, “See, this proves that women really want to be raped.” It’s understood that it’s simply, “Someone, maybe even a woman, likes to eroticize women in some way enjoying being raped in fiction.”
The trouble comes when people lack a context. Take a guy who watches a lot of porn, but hasn’t had the opportunity to interact with many women on a sexual level (and yes, this is a stereotypical and heterocentric portrayal, but lets just go with it). This guy is most likely intelligent enough to understand the difference between fantasy and reality, but he lacks the context of real sexual interaction to know where the line lies. Most people know, however, that rape is bad, and I don’t think this fiction changes that. As others have said, the people who would use this to justify rape are actively looking to find something for that purpose.
On a side note, I’m reminded of a housemate I had once. This lady had a 12 year old son who went to an all male school and the boys, of course, traded porn. She stated that she was very sex positive and was fine with him watching this porn, as long as she had “approved” it. Approval required her watching it, I think she had said “with him”, but I’ve blocked that out a bit and can’t be sure. Okay, I thought that was weird, because that kid has no context of what actual adult relationships and sexuality entail. Weirder, however, was that she didn’t want my boyfriend coming over and spending the night with me while her son was home because she “didn’t think it was appropriate.” My boyfriend at the time was a clean cut, well-spoken young man with whom I had a stable and healthy relationship (no screaming, disrespect, hitting, etc). I was in my mid twenties, older than many of the girls in the porn her son was watching. I still have no idea what was going on in her head. I moved out; that was a brand of crazy I couldn’t deal with.
To answer the question directly, I think memes of this type do have a propagandistic effect and that effect does soften the impact of rape. It is not a call to action; this segment doesn’t give the impression that people should go out and do this. However, the lack of repercussions on the woman’s life might indicate to less developed folks that rape isn’t a big deal, as if to say “Yeah, she cried afterward, but she came. And she seemed to get over it.” I’m well aware that such two dimensionality is part of the fantasy trope and this is just that, a fantasy. But many people aren’t able to keep fantasy where it belongs – either in your head or with a trusting lover – and thus go about in the world, meeting up with people and having ill conceived encounters that destroy lives. As far as the censorship issue is concerned, I wouldn’t say this should be hidden because silencing expression is always dangerous. Silence is also rape’s co-conspirator, to paraphrase Inga Muscio. The meme opens a doorway for discourse about rape, a topic only discussed between the victim, the police (maybe), his/her therapist (maybe), his/her family (maybe). That is always a good thing. If nothing else, it might disgust someone enough to do something about the craptastic legal codes surrounding date rape, the violently heteronormative behavioral conditioning our young men undergo as they age and the booze soaked dating rituals our society seems to endorse. It may also cause a moment of private reflection for formerly non-vanilla people who have been raped that helps rebuild their sexuality. As long as people are presented with sexually problematic situations like that written in the meme, we will continue to ask questions, continue to talk and continue to battle the silence surrounding rape. And like any monster, once exposed to light, it will hopefully disappear.
Rape is about power, not sex. It is the theft of autonomy of one’s person, that’s what a brigand does. It’s “I can do whatever I want because I’m stronger/more armed than you. No matter how you slice it or what you use as justification coercion is always wrong.
Bacchus, I couldn’t agree more with your criticism of premise #3. As long as someone thinks its ok to coerce people, the seed is sewn so to speak. Stories, movies, songs, ideas in general will be used(abused) by a coercer to justify their activity. Activity which is, of course, unjustifiable. The solution some would push is to remove any ideas/media that could be used to justify evil acts. Doing this would leave behind an intellectually impovrished world indeed.
Phoenix, obviously we have points of agreement, but I’ve never been comfortable with the “rape is about power, not sex” claim. It surely is about power, but it is also about sex, the two are not exclusive. For some rapists, rape is a way to get sex, or it’s a way to get the sort of violent sex they want.
I understand the desire and need to underscore the fact that rape is crime of violence and a criminal assertion of power. I get that. But I don’t understand the desire to parse the crime in a way that denies it’s a crime involving sex.
I hope this won’t derail the thread — it’s an aside and it’s an argument that’s also been very thoroughly thrashed about in lots of other places.
My partner writes erotica and her books have been published by a press
that specializes in romantic erotica, so I’ve spent a fair amount of
time looking over submission guidelines (and how appropriate is that
term!) for the books that romantic erotica publishers are seeking.
Nearly all of them very clearly specify that rape is a taboo, though the rule
gets bent if the rape somehow results in a romance.
This convention goes back at least as far as The Sheik and I suspect
that there were probably gatherings around campfires in Homeric Greece
where tale-tellers took special pains with the prurient details of the
women of Troy’s various ordeals.
I don’t think there’s a simple answer to your question about
propaganda. The varieties of response to a depiction of rape, and
probably to the act itself, are as varied and complex as human
psyches. There’s no question that some stories are justifications, or
excuses that men tell themselves to make themselves feel better about
their abominable behavior, but that’s only one piece of a very
complicated puzzle. The answers are also bound up (!) in notions of
dominance and power and even guilt about our own desires.
Rape is an awful thing, as are war and murder, but our reactions to it
speak volumes about our own natures. As always, thank you for bringing
up a thought-provoking topic.
This may be on a tangent from the actual discussion, but I figured I would share. In my personal experience, I’ve found that a consensual relationship in which both partners enjoy the idea of rape as a role play – not actual rape itself – is a good outlet for living the fantasy. I read rape stories a lot, always have, and they push all the right buttons for me to get me very hot. However, I always knew that actual rape wasn’t an option, never even gave thought to it. With my girlfriend it’s mutual, and we both enjoy ourselves quite a bit.
It’s nice to see an intelligent discussion about this topic that hasn’t deteriorated to a name-calling flame war :) It’s also heartening to hear so many understand the difference between fantasy and reality.
I would agree that psyche/soul/imagination doesn’t know the difference between fantasy and reality, nor does it care…
But ego DOES know the difference. And those without a strong ego (psychotics, schizophrenics) will have trouble differentiating fantasy and reality. Most of us, though, have moderate to strong egos and will be able to differentiate. The idea that “there are A LOT of people” who wouldn’t be able to differentiate is a misnomer and a big exaggeration.
As for an author’s responsibility to the public in writing or not writing things like rape fantasies or… well anything someone else would like to censor really… I like Rod Serling’s idea:
“I am responsible to the public, not for the public.”
-Selena
Cato – someone once asked for advice in one of the forums I frequent, saying she’d told a guy to stop, but when he had respected her wishes she’d felt let down, and was even considering leaving him for it. She felt more comfortable being pushed than being straight with him.
A big reason for the popularity of the rape victim fantasy is that within the fantasy it lets you completely relinquish control and not have to take responsibility for your own sexual desires. These fantasies of course often take place in a honest, self-aware setting, whether alone or with a partner, and I think that is fantastic. It acknowledges that in reality the ‘victim’ actually has full control over how the ‘rape’ plays out.
This does not however preclude people who for whatever reason haven’t thought about it very much if at all, and haven’t made that distinction in their minds. It takes a critical engagement to step away from the role you assume you’ve been asigned and that you assume other people like yourself are following.
This is why I say DISCUSS DISCUSS. The fantasies themselves are not harmful – witness all the people who enjoy them in a healthy way. It’s the misunderstandings and the guilt and the blurring of boundaries that are a problem. Thus, we should get this stuff out in the open. We should talk about what kind of treatment women deserve/enjoy, what kind of interactions are healthy, what behaviours are genuinely disrespectful and what behaviours only look similar to them. I don’t care that we’ll never reach a consensus, it’s the silence on these topics (outside of specific forums such as this one, for which I am deeply grateful) that’s causing more harm than anything else. Half the people I talk to don’t even have the language with which to phrase their concerns – I find that deeply sad.
It’s great that there are so many people willing to discuss this and put some thought into it.
In response to S, who asked: “Gem – if this story had been more subtle and insiduous and offensive to you, would you then have said it would be okay to censor?â€?
On principle, I am against any sort of censorship. It doesn’t matter how upsetting or offensive I find the subject matter, I would much rather have it out in the open rather than festering away in secretive whispers. Ironically, I find racist or homophobic statements upset me far more than rape-related material, and neither of them tend to be directed at me. (Fairly privileged white female that I am…) Regardless of how unpalatable I find a point of view, I would much rather hear it, so I can see the reasoning behind it. I completely agree with you that discussion is key.
However, society as a whole – and I’m speaking from a British perspective here – is still at the pre-pubescent giggling stage when it comes to open and frank discussion about sex. I know plenty of people who think that going into a lingerie shop is the height of adventurousness, so getting any of them to step away from their polarised and simplistic views would be rather challenging. If you asked them to explain date rape it would probably be either “She was asking for it, the teaseâ€? or “He went too farâ€?. I’d also like to know which country frauleine is from, as the phrase “booze soaked dating ritualsâ€? intrigues me. Our media and politicians are constantly reminding us of the complete lack of morals in Britain, how we have terrible teenage pregnancy rates and shocking drinking habits, and how our society is declining into an irrecoverable state of decadence and self-abuse. (I write this as I consume a glass of wine and look forward to opening my box of toys later, oh the irony…) Whilst I’m aware that the breakdown of society has been shouted about throughout the ages, and means very little in real terms, I would be interested to know if other countries have the same “go out, get drunk, get laidâ€? attitude amongst their teenagers. It’s certainly very prevalent here.
But I digress. Coming back to the original question of propaganda, I don’t think this particular story can have any real effect. You can read into it what you want — if by her own admission she wasn’t screaming or hurting Tom, did she really want to fight him off, or was it a play fight because she secretly wanted to be raped? But your opinion is already there in your head, probably quite well-formed and unlikely to be swayed by a story. You just fit the story to your opinion. In my case I would interpret it as, “She said no. That’s it.â€?
If you’re not sure if she really means no, then talk about it, come up with a “safe wordâ€?, anything, but don’t assume she’s joking.
As for the discussion about whether rape is more about power or sex, whilst I can see phoenix’s point, I have to assert that rape is very much about sex. It’s about a man taking sex from a woman, without permission. Using power, certainly, and probably enjoying the feeling of control and dominance, but she wouldn’t feel quite so bad about it if he was just taking her purse.
The prevalence of rape fantasies and – at least historically on a mass scale, of rape makes one wonder if there is something biological going on in the brain regarding rape and its relation to power. If much of our unconscious mate selection and sexual attraction is about biological survival of our DNA, as lots of modern researchers posit, could one make a reasonable argument that on some unconscious level the desire to be raped or at least semi-forced(whether as a fantasy or reality) had at some point survival value for females? A desire to ensure the mate was stronger and capable of taking what he wanted, which could translate into a better chance of survival and survival of offspring?
I think that in order to try to understand the psychological phenomenon of a ‘rape fantasy/reality’ that exists in many people, we need to try to understand, in so far as we can, the historical record that provides the reality of ‘rape’ that has over millenia shaped our unconscious and conscious reactions to it.
To answer the question: yes. But, that gives this a highly simplistic answer to a not so simple situation. While I don’t think the rapists out there for the power would even heed this (at most this will only affirm what they were going to do anyhow) meme, I DO believe that alot of men who are frustrated at being told no decide that women don’t know whats good for themselves and rape someone like the male in this meme does. Then again, as many other people pointed out, that doesn’t alter the fact that this is fantasy, and most people can distinguish between the two (and realize that while many women desire to lose control, they may not desire it as described above).
That being said, I think that if this type of meme had the propaganistic effect which I think it might, it has alot more to do with lack of openness about sex. As many people have mentioned, women do have these fantasies, which doesn’t make them wrong and yet doesn’t make it right to force it out of them either. Many people explore these fantasies with the use of safe words and clear signals. If mainstream society chatted about such things the way we do there would be a much higher understanding of “no” in fantasy and “no” in real-life.
One thing that struck me has to do with the ways that interrelated memes reinforce each other. F’ex, what Tom says when he’s beating the protagonist is heavily centred on the ideas that “what women want” is something -other- than sex, that sex is the coin by which they contract to purchase that something-other, and that when a woman says “no” she’s attempting to renege on the debt. That in turn goes back to the idea that women are essentially indifferent to sex, and that saying yes is passive acceptance of the act (“letting” him) rather than active desire. And a bunch of other related stuff – it’s astonishing how much of our sexual vocabulary, even what seems to take a positive view of female sexuality, assumes female passivity even in desire.
These are false-to-fact memes, at least to the extent of not being universal, but are still culturally pervasive. I don’t think that can be addressed by suppressing depictions of the assumptions in action (any more than abstinence-only sex ed will prevent horny teenagers from having sexual impulses; or than changing terminology will, in and of itself, change how people think), nor even by ignoring them – rather, I think such depictions provide an opportunity for discussion, and for correcting misimpressions.
That might have the effect, for some, of “taking all the fun out” of what they might find to be a hot rape-fantasy story. I have no qualms about that; challenging the ideas presented is not at all the same thing as censorship. (Though I’d rather challenge it in a venue where people expect to find discussion and debate as well as hot porn; when all one is after is to get one’s groove on, one resents being distracted by debate even if one thrives on debate at other times.)
Full disclosure: For me, the story was a bit too authentic of a depiction of those memes; my suspension of disbelief went *snap* and what might have been a stimulating ravishment fantasy was spoiled. My opinion -might- be slightly different had the tale pushed my buttons just right – but not much different; censorship may not be as violently coercive as the rape depicted, but it’s still coercive.
Sunflower
Is “The devil made me do it!” ever an appropriate excuse for shirking personal responsibility? If there are any real world negative consequences, I can’t support curtailing my own sexual expression to cater to the “needs” of the “lowest common denominator” (a socio-pathic personality, that one person in a million who might not “get it”), any more than I can support a rollback to a 15 mile-per-hour speed limit in order to save the lives of more highway travelers.
From the perspective of a heterosexual male, if any of the number of women whom I’ve dated ever treated me like the “Tom Phillips” character treated “Nichole” (and I’m just as “dom” identified as I am “sub” identified by the way…), no matter how early on in the dating period, or how close to it’s demise, I really can’t surmise my having any reaction other than delight. This may not necessarily apply to some undesirable stranger, but as for anyone that I’ve dated, the object from the start was to have at the very least a sexual relationship, not an asexual one, otherwise I’d be wining and dining the same sex as well. As for my own self, I say that at any time you feel like you can’t trust your date with your safety, it’s time to end the dating relationship immediately and altogether. I respond positively to any “date” who passionately, genuinely, and enthusiastically wants me sexually, and this applies whether they are coming from a dominant position or a submissive position. It’s irrelevant. Being as the writer admitted that she was not screaming at him to stop, or trying to hurt him, she presumably was sending some sort of signal to him (that he recognized) that indicated that she wasn’t really serious about resisting. This is common for intimate relationships with a bit of history. Semantics is also heavily involved here. Normal healthy men know when “no” really means “no”, and frankly, an argument could be made here as to whether or not the term “rape” can even be properly applied. Being as this is a work of fiction, the information we have to go on is rather finite. Had it been a real-life situation, and we had been “flies on the wall”, we might have been able to gather other clues as to whether or not she was in actuality “topping from the bottom”. Therefore, I especially can find no fault in a work of FICTION, where in my opinion, all’s well that ends well.
As for my own personal guideline, I endeavor to always err on the side where a jury of twelve men of reason would no doubt find me innocent, and I might add, that no woman has ever privately or publicly accused me of rape, nor have they ever ended a relationship with me due to any excess of coersion on my part.
I might further add, to paraphrase Patrick Henry:
“I know not what path others may take, but as for me, give me the liberty to fantasize without guilt, or give me death!”
Excuse me for not having a well memed fun-gina.
1) Did she press charges?
2) Did she get a PFA ASAP?
3) Did the dick who raped her do time?
4) Where is she now and how has she “moved
on”? Moved away? Family? Inward/isolation?
You’re debating about the rape fantasy of a
raped woman. In order to dissect it, analyze it,
and justify it.
There is a bright red line between ripping your
wife’s clothes off when she’s “too tired” and
date rape.
Any bastard that would even think of doing that
to my daughter will be buried in my garden with
the rest of them.
Correction, BK: we’re debating a piece of fiction about a raped woman. And, while I can’t speak to the motivation of others here, I’m interested in discussing whether the fiction can be seen as having negative effects on society, which is a far cry from discussing it in order to “justify it” as you say.
Folks, I treasure the fact that we got this much civilized discussion of a trigger-ish topic without melting down into incivility. Sadly BK’s comment (harshly ascribing base motives to the discussion) is more typical of how these discussions usually go. BK, if you respond, would you please be sure to stick to the arguments you’ve got, instead of being nasty about the motives of the other participants in the discussion? It will be greatly appreciated.
Hi Gem! To answer your question, I’m from the US. Methinks “get drunk, get laid” is pretty universal, at least in countries that don’t prohibit drinking. ;) The thing that surprises me is that the mindframe continues beyond the “tasteful” age bracket (20’s) and into one’s 30’s and even 40’s. The pack thins, the statistical probability of meeting unsavory types rises, but there is a disturbing normalcy to it; as if we’re ignoring a huge question, specifically: what is wrong with us when we have to get completely tanked to get our freak on? Then there is the hypothetical situation that naturally follows this – what happens to the women? what happens when they drink too much, don’t remember how it started, when it ended except that it did? do they consider themselves raped? By the definitions under which I was reared, yes. But has our culture shifted somehow? Or are these women denying something? I have my encyclopedia of experiences, first and second hand, but there are still no answers. Date rape and dating culture is hydra of interdependent qualities to be sure.
I would also like to add that the civilized, but open nature of this thread has been refreshing, uplifting even. You run a great site, Bacchus!
Please excuse the typo – I meant “civilized and open nature.”
Dr Whiplash – given that this is a work of fiction, speculation about what signals she was or wasn’t giving out and what flies on the wall would have seen is bound to be fruitless. It’s impossible to judge it in the same way as you would a real life situation. For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s meant to be read as BDSM but as a violation.
I thought Bacchus’ entire question was whether the ‘all’s well that ends well’ idea in narratives like this one is dangerous, given that it applies to unethical behaviours that in real life are vanishingly unlikely to end well at all.
As fantasy material, rape fantasy is as valid as any other to those who want it, or need it. Can I assume that most readers here have at least a moral tolerance for BDSM play, even if they have never chosen to participate themselves? Yet I’m sure a larger number of us would condemn actual physical torture of any kind, sexual or not.
So with rape and fantasy.
Can this concept of fantasy rape have a negative effect on society? I think only if the fantasy, its role and purpose, gets confused with the actual criminal act of rape.
Excellent discussion so far folks.If we were able to totally eliminate all depictions(through any medium)of violent crime would the result ever be the elimination of violence?Rape is about ego and about power and sex as well.I believe that real rape involves a sadistic self-entitlement to enjoy torture as a result of these issues.
So what are we left with?My personal belief is that fantasy is great and whatever you want to do in your own bedroom is fine.But I would strongly reccomend that you know and trust your partner in this enterprise,because a long jail sentence,as well as emotional and physical damage to the victim,could result.
Rape resides in human nature.I believe this is true,regardless of works of fiction that could influence those with convictions too weak to sort right from wrong.
I dont believe that this story will”enable”anyone to excuse their own behavior.As a society we need to eliminate this line of thinking,for instance,that McDonalds is responsible for making us fat,or that a male who reads a story will think that its okay for him to do this because he read that”she really wants it”.Rape as a crime is the responsibility of the attacker,solely.
I dont think there is anything fantasial or orgasmic in the event of the real thing,nor am I insinuating that anyone here thinks so.Im simply suggesting that should this be the recounting of an actual incident there might be a much different tone.
To Cato,I would say you did the right thing.You probably never gave”mind-reading” as a previous occupation on any job applications so one could hardly blame you for not knowing what she wanted.Trust and communication.Equal rights include the responsibility to express herself and her needs.Be glad you dodged that web.
Note to commenter #24:
That “speculation” is “fruitless” was kind of my point.
The character admitted that she was on the edge of another orgasm merely from washing her pussy… ostensibly as a result of the recent activity that she discloses that she was “picturing” in her mind at the time. That clue leads me to believe that she didn’t really see it as a “violation”, in fact, she went on to actively more firmly link it to pleasurable sexual activity by masturbating herself to orgasm — hardly the activity one would expect from a rape victim.
As to whether or not there is any tie herein to BDSM, please read:
http://www.eros...jobs/
and follow the link therein to “Her Desires” where I found this diary entry of a self-proclaimed “subbie”: http://www.herd....html …and see if you don’t recognize a dom/sub link…
Hi Dr Whiplash :)
I read this story as:
1) she was violated, and did see it that way herself, and
2) she enjoyed it.
This being fiction, that combination is entirely possible.
There are certainly some surface similarities with BDSM. However, as any practicing kinkster will take care to point out, BDSM is not abuse. So point 1 is incompatible with this story portraying a BDSM scenario. That someone is writing/enjoying these stories probably does indicate that they’re interested in sub/dom sexual play, but it does not mean that consensual dom/sub play is what’s happening within the story. In fact I assume eroticising the lack of consent involved is exactly what turns the author on.
Interestingly, it’s not uncommon for (real-life) rape victims to orgasm. That doesn’t mean rape is okay and that she must have wanted it really. I find that kind of thinking very dangerous even if it’s applied to fiction. I would much rather say this is fiction, and so these standards do not apply than try to find ways to excuse the man’s behaviour (‘she wasn’t struggling hard… she enjoyed it really, so it was okay’). In the case of real life assault those assumptions are simply incorrect, and in the case of fiction they are meaningless as there’s no real ‘she’ behind the words. And personally I believe that these attitudes, unlike fantasy rape stories shared online, cause concrete harm to human beings.
Aside from whether the fictional character secretly wanted it or not, whether she came or not… He left her devastated and struggling to get out of her bonds. I would love to see a second installment, where the character wreaks her own brand of personal vengeance through tying him down and strapping on something enormous and fearsome. What’s good for the goose… :o)
Personally, I want to know what happens next in the story. Does she try to press charges? Does she spend the next few days feeling broken? Does she dump the guy? Or does this lead to her falling madly in love? Also what’s the context of the fiction? If it’s purely erotica, fine. Very few people expect all women to have inflated breasts of porn starlets. However, if its an otherwise mainstream novel it’s potentialy harmful. Context is key.
I of course realize that on occasion, a woman will orgasm even after she has previously imparted a denial of assent and that this woman in the story never gave her date voiced permission, and that she initially, may have even verbally declined to have sex. On the surface, this would constitute rape in my book as well. However, in this excerpt, the author doesn’t really seem to weigh in clearly about whether or not she wanted it, or whether or not he knew she wanted it. Her date apparently felt comfortable enough about his aggression to vulnerably put his tongue in her mouth, and she proclaims from the start that it was the best orgasm she ever had. The character uses the term “date rape” in quotes as if she doesn’t mean it literally. My take is that perhaps the author is trying to portray her as repressed due to some religious upbringing or other cultural formation, and she is having trouble giving herself permission to be a jubilantly sexual being. She hints that she was using sex as a weapon to punish him for daring to display some undesirable behavior. Freud might have said she spent the evening engineering the outcome. After all, she also admits that the SECOND best sex she’d ever had was also when she was “overpowered”, “taken”, and “held” down.
I maintain that just because she won’t acknowledge her caper, doesn’t mean that the game isn’t being played, or that it isn’t consensual. And yes, it’s a dangerous game, but then she admits that this excites her.
In fact, if this were a real situation, and our good friend Mr. Freud were about, he may even postulate that the aggressive male character was subconsciously setting the stage for just such a “retaliatory” scenario as suggested by sage in comment #29…
Consent is always worth considering.
Should a story like this be stopped? As long as someone wants to write it and there are people who want to read it, no. People have consented to examine the ideas presented, for their varying reasons.
On the other hand, if the story is (for instance) repeatedly sent to someone who has asked *not* to receive such things, consent has been violated and appropriate action should be taken in order to stop the problem. That’s not censorship. However, general censorship is bad because it allows others to make decisions for otherwise able-to-decide-about-consent-for-themselves individuals. It ends discussions before they even begin. Censorship is anti-consent.
okay. now, here’s the thing, i am in a relationship in which i CONSENTUALLY give control over my body to my partner. this includes Him giving me to others sometimes, for their sexual use. i submit to this, and ther’s no issue.
a while back, i was staying with a friend of my partner’s. he cam into the bedroom where i was, and initiated sex with me. i assumed at that point that he was doing such with my partner’s permission, and accepted it. i was tired, and did it and went back to sleep, but there was no iswsue.
later, i asked my partner if he had indeed given mr. X permissionto have sex with me. His answer was a very surprised “NO!”
then i felt used, and was angered. i was not violently raped, but i feel that i WAS raped. i was used non-consentually. that man used me without my express consent, and without my permission.
now, one could argue that because i didn’t say no, or attempt to stop him, that i wasn’t raped, but he KNEW the situation,and he KNEW that he did not have permission.
it’ snot about being violent, or saying no. it’s about doing something you know that person does not agree to.
people who commit rape may make excuses for themselves and create justifications, but stories like these will make no difference to a person who wants to take what they want, just like that person who took me did not care whether or not he had permission. he took what he wanted any way he could get it.
Note to “~m”:
I know of many somewhat similar dom/sub relationships, and when anyone approaches the “subbie” for sex, the protocol is to reply: “I take my orders from my Master, ask Master and he will inform me of my orders directly.”
If one’s Master has given one no such previous instructions, then he has given tacit approval for the situation such as you’ve described above. This is a humiliation game which is popular in some BDSM circles, and one may never know for sure whether or not one’s Master had foreknowledge, despite what he tells his submissive.
If you didn’t clarify these rules long beforehand with your Master, or didn’t verify his wish in this instance, then you gave tacit approval of the use of your body.
Again, I wonder what our good friend Dr. Freud, who was fond of saying “There are no mistakes” would say about this behavior, or Eric Berne, the creator of “transactional analysis” and author of the 1964 best seller, “The Games People Play: the Psychology of Human Relations”. One does not have to be CONSCIOUSLY aware that one is in a game in order to be a player, nor does a conscious player necessarily have to admit that a game is afoot…
“Tacit approval?” That’s uncomfortably close to saying “she asked for it” from where I sit.
I strongly disagree. The situation (if the “friend” indeed did know all the nuances of ~m’s situation as she says — errors and misunderstandings abound in human affiars) is a 21st century version of what the old English common law understood as “rape by trick”.)
~m: *hugs*. An important thing about consent is that it has to be ‘informed consent’. If someone has failed to make known details that they knew would change your mind, whether that’s STI or relationship status, it was not fully consensual.
Consent can be a really tricky matter and not as black and white as people on both camps make out, but wherever there’s deliberate deception it’s difficult to argue that the situation was consensual. This is of course assuming that he understood that you had a master/slave relationship with your partner.
Dr whiplash: I think all your comments have been full of victim blaming. I’m not going to argue this any further on Bacchus’ space as these discussions can get pretty heated and no one ever changes their mind. But please do read that link.
Thanks all for the food for thought :) I love the discussions here.
I realize that I am positioning myself as the devil’s own advocate here, and Bacchus, you may be 100% correct in assessing the friend’s motives as rape. He may not be a knowing participant in the game. I still believe that this doesn’t preclude that one or the other (or both) of the remaining two participants couldn’t engineer such a scenario. Among the many popular games Dr. Berne describes are “Rapo”, “Uproar”, “Schlemiel”, “Look what you made me do”, “Let’s pull a fast one on Joey”, “Let’s you and him fight”, “Courtroom”, “Kick me”, “Wooden leg”, “Perversion”, “Ain’t it awful”, “If it weren’t for you”, “See what you made me do”, and “Now I’ve got you, you son of a bitch”. Often more than one “game” can be run at the same time. As I mentioned in a previous comment, these are very dangerous games (read “Dangerous Liaisons”) indeed, and quite often end in lawsuits, injuries, prison time, and/or death. To think we humans aren’t devious enough to play them, does a great disservice, especially to my ex-wife, but then perhaps you didn’t know her…
I’m not trying to create adversarial relationships here. I think you guys are brilliant, thoughtful, and articulate. As I said, I’m just playing the devil’s advocate. I think “victim blaming” is despicable. I just think it’s always important to identify the real victim. Things are not always as they seem. Every woman (or man) who cries “rape” is not always to be believed. A good example of the convuluted possibiliteis can be found here: http://en.wikip...hings
I was wondering when someone who bring up the point that S made in comment 28, that sometimes real life rape victims experience orgasm. The woman I was with last year admitted to me that she had been raped at least once (unfortunately she was a heavy drinker. From what she absently told me of her sex history as she grew to trust me more I suspect she’d been raped several distinct times) and I suspect that at least some of her guilt was that she experienced some pleasure during it (DISCLAIMER; I’M NOT SAYING SHE ENJOYED BEING ASSUALTED, JUST THAT SHE CLEARLY HAD SOME RESPONSES THAT SURPRISED HER).
I thought it was interesting that the writer set up the premise that the character had already been intimate with the male. I thought it was implied that the incident was likely unusual for both parties. When she ‘wasn’t tired’ the two had consensual relations. She made no indications that the male had previously acted violently during sex. The story was odd for me because I wasn’t completely sure about the writers’ intentions. It seemed like more of a curiosity being explored than a demon being exorcized.
My partner was harmed by her experiences in ways that were unpredictable. She liked having her hands held over her head during sex but even the suggestion of actually tying her wrists would sent her into convulsions of panic (I never brought the subject up but she kept coming back to the idea). One of the many disturbing things she said to me was that a cop told her that often rape victims become pregnant because there is some biological imperative to do so. I gather she had the conversation with him at a party, but I was too skeezed out by the comment to ask her more details. Unless he really didn’t know that my friend had been raped it sounds like an inappropriate comment from a policeman, even if he thought it was true. It also sounds to me like one of the streams of urban myth type ideas that speak to the so called ‘rightness’ of male domination. Even if women aren’t ‘wise’ enough to know it their bodies realize they should bear children to the most powerful men they encounter. I find the idea offensive.
The younger and more inexperienced boys are the more likely they will respond to the idea of women as ‘-itch’, slut, whores. It takes time to realize that one woman rejecting you isn’t a condemnation by the entire sex but just a specific rebuff. There really is someone for everyone out there.
I’m fairly sure my friend never read much erotica and I doubt many of her real life abusers where following any fantasy driven thread, I think it was expediency. Communication is so bad between the sexes that a percentage of men that actually have raped partners were oblivious to the extent of their transgressions. Not an excuse just an observation. It would seem like rape fiction would be detrimental to reality, but again I think it’s the last thing on the mind of such on opportunistic clod.
And I think m at comment 33 made an excellent point. The male she encountered was an opportunistic clod. I think part of the point is that m and her partner might very well had agreed to the encounter but the guy put himself in a position where “noâ€? wasn’t an option for him. M has a relationshi0 of trust with her partner. (I’m going to wager that the relationship is more about trust and mutual pleasure than humiliation, but I don’t know the participants so I’m painting blindly as whiplash did in comment 24, although in the opposite direction, I think). I think it’s clear that the guy took pleasure in getting away with something.
artistJ
i find it just a bit offensive, Dr. that you presume that the protocols YOU have observed apply to me. in the M/s world, i find that very very few dynamics have even REMOTELY the same exact protocols, they may seem similar, but they are widely varied. someone who claims to know as much as you do should be aware of that. and also, i thought i was being very clear in stating what the other person did and did not know about the relationship i have with my owner, and about His permission-giving.
just because my owner did not instruct me to call him the second someone initiates sex with me while he has allowed me into their house does not make either of us libel to the ministrations of the other man.
he knew that if he initiated sex with me, that i would allow it, because i would assume that he had my owner’s permission. my owner and i both trusted him in this regard. my owner trusted that he would not use me without my owner’s permission. i trusted that if he was using me, my owner had given permission, because my OWNER trusted him!
he abused the trust of both of us. and he raped me.
thank you.
~m.
This is the first comment I’ve made on this blog, and first of all, I have to say, what a literate, civil readership you have here, Bacchus! Forty comments that stayed basically and respectfully on track despite the charged subject? This is refreshingly exceptional!
To address your question directly: I think this story/fantasy meme is indeed a type of propaganda, but with an important twist that I did not see mentioned anywhere in these comments.
I am a woman who writes erotic fiction and I also read a LOT of it, including force/rape fantasies. And I feel I have to bring up an idea here for consideration:
In my well researched opinion (smile), it is my belief that most of these types of stories are written by men.
I know, I know… but just stay with me a minute! This isn’t a rant.
I’m NOT saying that women don’t write these types of fantasies or that women don’t get off on them. Many of us certainly do both!
But there is a distinct “feel” to the narrative in most of these stories that just seems… off, from a woman’s perspective.
If you read these stories very carefully, there is always a place or several in the story where there is a glaring “what the fuck?” moment concerning how the narrator, who is supposed to be a woman telling a story from inside a female body, would write about the experience. In this excerpt, I found one such moment here:
“Well, I had no reason to disappoint me, so I rubbed myself until I came again. But then I was mad at myself for doing it.”
This smacks of a MALE fantasy about what a man might like a woman to think after being turned on by a beating and a rape: not only wildly turned on by what a man just did TO her, but in the end, also taking total responsibility for the the act itself.
I am well aware of all the meta-theories about internalization and transference, complicity with the perpetrator, and rape is about power, not sex, etc., and how all of those theories and more are very much a part of this whole topic.
But my focus here is simply that of pausing a moment to examine how we too easily take a fantasy writer’s voice at face value, and what beneath-the-radar judgments come from those assumptions.
I have no idea if Vulgus, the author of this story, is male or female. But if you read the description the narrator gives of “her” physical body at the beginning of the story (which Bacchus provided the link to)… well, let’s just say that most women, writing in the first person, would never describe themselves that way :) However, it IS a textbook example of how a man might describe an attractive woman (which is really the only type of women that a man wants to rape, right?). Read it for yourself and see what you think.
This story is not the most obvious example of a male voice writing as a female, but in so many other stories of this kind, the male voice is much easier to detect, much more obviously trying to write as another gender (and terribly missing the mark). Next time you run into one of these free anonymous fiction stories out there, listen with an ear for a male voice and judge for yourself.
Anyway, let’s say for argument’s sake that most of these stories are indeed written by men, so what? What does that say about propaganda in this case?
I think it’s this: That male writers of this particular meme/fantasy are using the female voice to normalize their own feelings; they are trying to show the “truth” about what women feel which, of course, just happens to match what these male writers themselves need women to feel.
And further, that the main point is not even to show that women actually DO feel like this (aroused by force or rape), but that it’s alright for ALL men and women to simply assume that “most” (re: all) women do therefore, again, making the male author’s individual feelings a-ok.
However, since propaganda is usually carried out with intent, we could say that these types of stories are in a sense mostly unconscious propaganda… or a kind of “inner” propaganda aimed at simply making it permissible for the individual (male) author to feel ok about his own needs, urges, fantasies.
But because these stories become public, the propaganda moves from the confines of one male author’s fantasy to a societal meme. And because most readers are going to take at face value the claim that the narrator is female simply because the “I” of the story says so, well…
… that’s where it starts to get really tricky – in the same way that men stealing and silencing women’s voices has always been a tricky thing, both personally and societally.
As is true of most propaganda, these stories manipulate the already existing vulnerable spots of a culture.
Women’s voices are routinely co-oped by men (yes, still) and women are conditioned and expected to ultimately take on the burden of the result of men’s actions.
(Please understand that I make that statement as a very general cultural observance, not a statement true of every woman or every man)
So, how better for one male writer to promulgate his own inner belief that women are turned on by rape than to steal and manipulate the very voice that could be used to tell otherwise; the very voice that his society already tells him is acceptable to steal: the intensely personal and intimate voice of a woman telling her “own” story.
I will stop here since any more would be a dissertation that will take us way off topic. The point of my comment was just to present an important point that was not already mentioned in this discussion.
In erotica, the story (including the “fantasy” of the author’s voice) is whatever the author wants it to be. No erotic piece is ever meant to be taken as an objective unbiased report of “just the facts ma’am.”
Erotica is art – yes, even these “tedious… free internet sex” stories. And art by its very nature is dangerous in that it both obfuscates and illuminates what we often would rather not acknowledge.
This makes art the perfect vehicle by which to deliver to the people the package of confusion that is propaganda, but also to illuminate those weak spots in the culture that made the propaganda possible in the first place.
So, are these stories propaganda? In my opinion, yes, as I’ve described above. Are they dangerous? Yes, I believe so. But just as I would not advocate censorship of any “dangerous” art for the above reasons, I would never want to see these stories banned in any way – not even the really badly written ones ;)
Bacchus, you said: “Memes are the vocabulary of thought.” Very true. And freedom of thought as well as expression of those thoughts is, as you say, a fundamental individual right.
But so is the freedom (and necessity, really) to truly listen to what is being expressed. So, in the case of this meme and these types of stories, I would urge each of us to ask: who’s thoughts are really being expressed, what filters are they being told through, and to what ultimate consequence?
Elizavetta, this thread has succeeded beyond my wildest expectations, and I am feel both humbled and honored to have the sort of readership that could conduct this discussion so civilly. I honestly expected total comment thread meltdown on this one.
I quite agree with most of what you say in your comment. I especially agree that an enormous amount of folk-erotic fiction is structured to excuse and justify expressed fetishes and kinks the author has but is (for various reasons) not perfectly comfortable with.
I’m less persuaded by your suggestion that, in the context of internet fiction, it’s a powerful tactic for a man to co-opt or steal a putatively female voice in order to spread his preferred memes. In this internet age where skeptical readers are used to wondering whether “Sweet16cutie” in the chatroom is a balding 52-year old male ironworker from Duluth, I wonder how much power the tactic really has?
Bacchus,
Thanks for responding. You are indeed lucky to have such a readership!
Concerning your thoughts on the power of the tactic of stealing the female voice, I would like to first, pose a question: Which seems more socially dangerous to you, more powerful as propaganda: a man writing in the first person about raping a woman and feeling proud that what he did to her turned her on so much that she “couldn’t help herself” and had an orgasm, or a man writing as a woman in the first person who is turned on so much by being raped that she simply dissolved in multiple orgasmic joy?
Both are problematic in their own ways, of course, but which one seems more powerful as a way to convince people (men AND women) to believe that “all” women really, secretly, get turned on by rape?
Secondly, I absolutely agree that internet users have become used to wondering about Sweet16cutie in the chat room, and yet, don’t you find it odd that not until comment #41 did any one of your very insightful readers even mention the fact that the “female” author of this this story might not actually be a woman.
In fact, many of the commentors here referred to the narrator as “she” without provision. I was actually really surprised by that, and I’m not sure what to think about it. Is this a case of The Emperor’s New Clothes? Or is it just that we’re all so used to this idea of false online identities that people feel it’s not even worth mentioning?
Elizavetta, I’m not sure I can answer your first question. The two approaches both suffer from believability problems. The male voice approach is sort of obviously a wish-fulfillment — nobody’s likely to believe that the narrator has correctly grasped or accurately reported events. The male-writing-as-female approach is probably more powerful if it’s carried off so that nobody suspects male authorship, but you’ve already cataloged some reasons why that’s not likely.
I’m more interested in the odd way in which you shuttle the pea between walnut shells in your third paragraph. We were having a conversation about the fairly-easy-to-document phenomenon that some women enjoy aspects of rape fantasy, but are you now suddenly asserting a male rhetorical agenda (in stories like this) of convincing people that all women get turned on by actual rape?
If so, I say, whoa! That may be assuming away one of the questions that’s before the house. Is there actually such a pernicious agenda in stories like this? That’s a version of the question I opened with, and I don’t think “yes” has been established or even explicitly argued yet in this thread.
We’ve already discussed the idea that such stories function to help their authors self-accomodate with their own rape fantasies. I’m not saying there’s not a pernicious outwardly-directed rhetorical agenda, I’m just pointing out that you jumped to a “which of these two literary devices more effectively advances the agenda” type question in a manner that seems to assume the existence of the pernicious agenda — an assumption I’m not yet comfortable with, even if I was the one to ask the question in the first instance.
Finally, I’m confused by the way you switch between discussing the author and narrator of this tale. The author is self-identified by a masculine-sounding (Latinate with male noun ending) name; the narrator is female. The author’s “true gender” (if that means anything, I know some folks who would dispute it) is unknown; by contrast, the narrator’s gender is quite certain. Why would any commenters here refer to the narrator as anything but female? She is female, to the fullest extent (however full that may be) that the word “is” has any place in discussions of fictional characters.
It is an interesting topic.
A number of years ago there was a social science book that pointed out that 75% of women who were forced by their boyfriends always went back to them. But there was a relationship there, a certain level of trust, forced but not violent, and the relationship continued so there was further communication.
This contrasts with the violence of a (near) stranger, which seems to enter another realm.
We have certainly seen a resurgence of ‘male sexual power,’ since the 1970’s when ‘sensitive men’ helping sexually repressed, frigid women discover their orgasms. The connection with BDSM and its increasing acceptance plays into the splitting of the ‘whole man’ into the parts we like and don’t like… the friends with benefits. Rape between consenting adults is fine. A violation of emotion, trauma, loss of control, submission to abusive dominance contrasts with submission to a true, wise male dominant, which is at the heart of the rape fantasy. I think most women in their fantasy combines both the male sexual aggression, power, force, a beautiful body, a startlingly hard cock, but also from within him a sense of a wise, deep soul that is out of control in desire for her. His motives are for her, and she has awakened and made this ‘deep masculine power’ lose control, as a compliment to her. She loses her control and is subject to his loss of control over himself for her, so the violation has connections with a lot more than a shallow, self-centered rapist that uses her as just an object for his own feelings of powerlessness. The wise man may not care if she says no, but it is a pure motivation for her that the wild passion has unleashed for a moment, showing something that connects with the animal in her. A re-shuffling of the inner controls against the restrictions of conventions that we are normally bound to.
Rape fantasies and BDSM are combined in the search for a powerful, sexual, and wise man, who uses his whole being in his attentions to the woman. He does not transfer his powerlessness, but his powerfulness, a big difference. The criminal rapist is what we hate about society in general, two-dimensional, selfish and superficial. Whereas there is a spiritual element of longing and wholeness of the male, and its connection to the whole female. It’s ‘spiritual,’ in a world of domesticated, trained men, who have politics on their mind at work and with women. This circumvents that to a deeper meaning of wisdom, animal and sex naturally combined in actual caring, without all the calculation. So it is spiritual and anti-civilized at the same time. It is whole for the human, outside of a society does not and cannot promote because of the fear of the wild male penis as symbol of social violence, war and abusive dominance.
Civilized power is two dimensional, trying to steal someone else’s power for selfish motives. Criminal rape reflects that. But rape fantasies reflect a deep longing by women for a different kind of male they find in civilized, controlled society. They want connection to that wise, powerful male on all those different levels, without all the ‘mind’ getting in the way, which is just manipulation. Rape fantasies want to capture that maleness that is missing in our hierarchical politics that women experience in a female-negative world.
I’d like to add a male perspective on this, though, not
exactly the same situation.
I grew up with the notion that no means no. The value was and is strong enough to make it impossible for me to
follow through with sex unless there is consent. Games are okay when ground rules are set so an imaginary rape would be okay.
I have two real life experiences that further confuses this rape issue.
First time, I was with a woman and things were progressing as they normally do and when the time was right to move towards penetration I was met with a “stop”. So I stopped. She then gave the the verbal advice to “stop, but don’t stop trying”. This went on for a number of encounters and got quite frustrating.
To say the least, I was quite confused. I just didn’t understand what was in her head. Maybe I do now.
Second time (different woman of course), the same thing. Hot and steamy foreplay and when the time came to enter her pussy, she pulled away. Resisted. So…..I stopped. She replied with a “why did you stop?”. I said because you wanted me to. With that she looked at me and said “you don’t get it do you?” I asked, “don’t get what? What do you mean?”. So we began again to reach the same interuption. This actually happened a number of times till I got frustrated. She said, “you don’t get it do you?”. She kept saying that over and over. I kept asking what I didn’t get. At the end of a long and confusing evening. She finally said helped this dumb fellow out. She played the riddle game trying to parallel this dilema with another life experience and what I’d do. Long story but I didn’t ever figure it out. She finally told me that “when you run into a road block, blocking where you want to go, you “go” through it” and get to where you want to go by any means necessary.” She wanted me to force myself on her.
With these two experiences behind me it quite upsets me to read the political statement that No Means NO.
Still, I personally couldn’t rape anyone.
My two cents anyway.
Bill
I found this blog from http://transfix....com/ and I noticed that that aren’t any comments that mention women’s guilt about sex. In spite of modern feminism, many women still feel a lot of shame and guilt about having and enjoying sex. If they choose sex, enjoy it, and have wild orgasms they’re bad girls. If they’re forced to have sex they can enjoy it guilt-free because it wasn’t their choice! That way they’re innocent victims, and not sluts. That’s my theory as to why so many women have rape fantasies and enjoy rape play. Feminism still has far to go.
I’ve rarely contacted anyone through the internet but I’m sure one or two were men posing as women. (Do strange women ever really want to see ‘dick shots’ of potential suitors except as fodder for humor?) I didn’t take the writers actual sex into question; I just thought the skill of the writing was poor, not unusual in amateur erotica. I don’t question the ‘maleness’ of characters in fiction by Jane Austen or A. S. Byatt nor likewise are the motivations and speeches of most of the women in Woody Allen’s films less than convincing. The latter is important because I adore his work, think he is brilliant but find what I know of his personal ethics reprehensible. The motivations of writers can/will color our appreciation of their work but in a perfect world they probably shouldn’t. Any good writer will be clever enough to suspend our belief to get their desired effect. Clumsy writers are just that, clumsy (and often disturbingly obvious).
And everyone likes to give up control on occasion, men as well as women. A vacation from responsibility brought about by tiredness or alcohol or both or whatever might be nice. It would be nicer to be honest about ones impulses and just accept myriad desires, but that might be asking too much, as a general thing.
Artistj
Note to ~m (comment#40)
I did not presume that the protocols that I observed in others “applied” to those of your owner and you. Quite the opposite, I assumed that their protocols, and yours, were different. That was my point.
No matter how vehemently your owner and/or your owner’s friend deny it, you of course can never know for certain that they were not in cahoots by-the-way…
Just one of many possible scenarios is that convincingly denying complicity, may be his way of providing you with a more realistic rape fantasy.
Being as a good master provides scenarios which are as “real” as possible (of greater believability, not of lesser believability), this would be to his credit.
Good M/s relationships are created to provide heightened emotional states, not blunted ones. The object is to increase excitement, not boredom.
With the protocol you have in place, could you not in fact expect to see many repetitions of these types of ordeals over the years to come.
Parachuting into a dead discussion after sixteen years or so, to shamefacedly admit that in 2008 I knew all about memes (in the “ideas that spread within a culture” sense, not the “funny pictures with captions” sense) but I was not familiar enough with the word “trope” to have used it throughout this discussion in all of the places where it would have been a much better word choice. Doh!