Sex Personals Massacre, Redux
Although most of the sex commentators I like and respect appear to have climbed on the “Fortuny Is Evil” fleshpile in connection with The Great Craigslist Sex Personals Massacre Of 2006 (I include without limitation Violet Blue (who started out thoughtful but is now namecalling), Mistress Matisse, and Dan Savage), I’ve been disappointed that their united condemnation of Fortuny has been intensely personal, without really coming to grips with the interesting question of what, in a rigorous ethical sense, his great crimes seem to have been. OK, so he’s a “prick” and what he did was wrong” (Matisse), but what moral obligation did he violate? He “sucks” (Savage) and he’s a “creepy guy” and a “jerk” (Violet) — all of which may be true, I don’t know the guy, but what does it have to do with what he actually did?
The more I think about this, the more I come around to thinking that what he did to get the howling mob after him (and by howling mob, I refer more broadly to others who have weighed in on the controversy; the folks I’ve quoted here are the calm and thoughtful ones) was he violated outdated and unreasonable social expectations.
Savage talks about “privacy violations”, Violet about “basic privacy and communication rules of conduct”, but neither of them come to grips with my point, which is that it’s not inherently reasonable to expect random strangers to preserve your privacy. You don’t have any expectation of privacy in an email you send to a stranger; or, if you do, there’s something wrong in your thinking. At best, you’re relying on their social graces — I’ll go so far as to agree that it’s polite to protect the confidences of strangers — but how many random strangers exhibit the manners you’d prefer? Not enough, never enough, especially not when something important — like your privacy — is on the line.
I am heartened to see some understanding of my other point, which is that a lot of responders to sex ads are misbehaving in various ways, and thus are exposing themselves (heh) to more risk than they are comfortable accepting. These miscreants (and I refer specifically to the virtual flashers who slammed the comments on my last post with “the slut was asking for it” self-justifications) seem to be the most outraged, because (like virtually everyone else except me, it seems) they feel their misbehaviour ought to be cloaked by the privacy-protecting practices of their intended victims, and they aren’t happy to learn that their expectations of privacy aren’t as reasonable as they’d hoped.
To which I say, “Waah.”
Violet seems to get this part, writing:
Think of it like this: when you upload a porn photo to Flickr, you are in violation of their Terms of Use rules and they take it down. When you use your work email address to answer an explicit sex ad, you are essentially in violation of your employer’s TOU. If you cheat on your wife, you’re in violation of your marriage’s TOU. In his “experiment”, Jason Fortuny violated several ethical and social TOUs that many of us accept as basic privacy and communication rules of conduct.
But not everyone outed in The Craigslist Experiment was violating one of life’s TOUs — I’ll even argue that the majority of the people who had their personal info revealed didn’t care, or notice.
I don’t, obviously, agree that Fortuny violated any TOUs — if anything, he merely ignored one of those meaningless and overreaching shrinkwrap EULAs on boxed software, one that others are attempting but failing to impose on him, one that he never agreed with and which consequently has no moral or ethical juice. (There’s a huge difference between breaking a promise and failing to behave as expected. The ad in question did not say “All replies kept confidential.” If it had, this argument wouldn’t be happening. Then Fortuny’d be the obvious jerk everyone says he is.)
But I do agree with Violet that folks who were using Craigslist in an ethically appropriate way — which is to say, folks who were ethically free to be looking for rough kinky sex, and who weren’t simply using their response as a vessel for their virtual self-exposure kink “because the slut was obviously asking for it”, folks who weren’t violating any of life’s TOUs, folks with nothing to be ashamed of — these people couldn’t be hurt in the Massacre, and weren’t.
Leaving my sympathy for the remainder muted at best.
Why, exactly, is everyone in favor of a social privacy rule that primarily benefits adulturers, virtual flashers, and other people who engage in online sexual behavior that they can’t defend, proudly and publicly, in their own lives and communities? Why is it so hard to understand that all online behavior is public?
Shorter URL for sharing: https://www.erosblog.com/?p=1759
and its never private online. I had someone call me a few names on a post that is a few years old. Happily I still stand by what I said, but it was still surprising to hear about something written awhile ago.
It seems a basic thing. By commenting here, I have to be willing to stand by both what I said here and that I’ve seen your blog. So if either were to violate some agreement, like I did this from a work PC, which I do not, then I should expect to pay the piper. I actually look at this as a good thing. We shouldn’t expect people to cut us slack just because, in the absence of any agreement.
What Fortuny did was unethical. I have to agree with Dan Savage on this one. Kinky persons do use personals to meet each other, and this really strikes a blow in the credibility and trustworthiness that is needed for any personal ad system to work.
Surely this is a public forum. However, e-mails sent to me are private materials. If they were meant for public consumption, they would be posted in a public forum. E-mail is as private as letters, and I don’t see a reason why letters should not be kept private.
Markus, why? You’re just doing what I’m complaining about — claiming an ethical violation without explaining what duty or obligation Fortuny supposedly breached. “I don’t see a reason” is not an ethical argument.
I completely agree with you, Bacchus. If you don’t want your information public, don’t put it out there. Don’t be naive enough to rely on someone else to protect you. When I read some of that, what I came away with was not what perverts these people were outed for being, but that they were outed for stupidity.
And being outed for being stupid (or naive/gullible/whatever you want to call it) makes people angry. The hate-Fortuny bandwagon is possibly a whole lot of people who wonder if they might be next. If they *could* be outed that easily.
Why would anyone assume that some stranger (and most especially one who wrote an ad like Fortuny did. Did you read it? It was horrible!) is obligated to protect their privacy? In a perfect world, if you lose your credit card you do nothing and wait for it to be returned to you. We don’t live in a perfect world. You cancel your card within 5 minutes. It’s common sense. And common sense should also dictate that you don’t use your real name and address if have something to hide about your sexual deviances.
I have nothing to hide and could care less if my entire life was laid out on the 10:00 news and I *still* don’t use my real name.
Fortuny didn’t play by some invisible set of rules. He violated the United Perverts Pact of Secrecy.
Whatever.
If anything, I think this whole debacle will finally establish some rules about what is and is not private on the internet. If I were to go about publishing my best friend’s sexuality, address, phone number, and pictures of him on the internet under false pretenses, would that be okay? Ethically and morally, I believe not. He has not given me permission to publish that information, and has given me that information with the understanding that I would keep it confidential. Reprinting it would be breaking the trust he has placed in me.
Honestly, I think the real kicker will be whether or not he intended harm through this ‘experiment.’ If he conducted this whole affair with the explicit intent to cause financial, physical or emotional harm to those who responded, I believe it may technically count as a scam and he could face repercussions.
But that’s just my two cents. ^.^
But there is a big difference between ‘best friend’ trust and a complete stranger responding to a badly worded personal pick-up ad. Why does anyone assume trust, confidentiality, ethics or morality exist under those circumstances?
I see no reason not to betray any trust that’s been put in me. Perhaps it’s a character flaw, but I always operated under the golden rule of “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.”
This is easily and
This is easily and quickly going to degrade into a discussion of morality and ethics if we don’t stop that line of reasoning. I still believe it mainly comes down to if Fortuny commited a crime – namely, a scam or fraud – and whether or not he’ll face repercussions.
Theoretically, if what he did is punishable by law, does that not then indicate that what he did is morally objectionable?
Er, I was inviting a discussion of morality and ethics.
And my point was that there’s no “trust” involved when you get emails from a perfect stranger. Especially when that stranger is not sending something responsive to your request, but instead is sending you an inappropriate missive designed to get his rocks off without regard to what you asked for.
As for the “it might have been a crime”, I think that’s a red herring. Criminal culpability requires criminal intent plus specific bad acts, and whatever his intent, nobody’s yet identified a specific criminal law prohibiting any of the things Fortuny did. I don’t see a crime there, and I don’t think one’s gonna turn up.
And finally to your theoretical question, no — just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it’s immoral. The law prohibits all kinds of things that are said to be “malum prohibitum” — bad because they are prohibited — but not “malum in se” — bad in themselves. Plus, I’m on record as being an anarchist, and we tend not to look to government for moral instruction. (Understatement.)
Kaya, I did see the ad. My understanding is that Fortuny did not write it, but rather plucked it from another set of online personals elsewhere. Though the learned speculation over at Violet Blue’s blog — with which I agree — is that it was never a serious ad in the first place, but was a spooof / fake / fantasy ad when it was first placed.
I think you may be write about the outrage stemming from a violation of the United Perverts Pact of Secrecy (though I feel compelled to note that we’re using “Pervert” in its derogatory sense, something I don’t often do because of the collateral damage it does to good honest happy harmless well-behaved perverts, being the vast majority thereof.)
I think there could be justification for publishing a private email if there are some legitimate reasons for it. For example, if you get a cease and desist letter from a lawyer that affects your website, it seems reasonable to post it in place of the material you had to remove.
If you learn that your friend’s lover is cheating on them, there is a reason to tell them the truth, because you have a bond with your friend, even though revealing the secret could be damaging.
Also, suppose someone (company or individual) is doing harm to another, and you learn of it in private correspondence. In order to stop that harm, you may need to make the private email or letter public. There would be a higher reason to do it. Whistleblowing is a noble act.
Fortuny had none of those reasons. He wasn’t revealing this private information for some noble cause. He wasn’t trying to right some wrong. He was doing it for his own pleasure and amusement, at the expense of strangers, which are human beings as well. That’s what makes him a jerk, and possibly a sadistic jerk.
Now, would a careful, thoughtful person entrust their most vulnerable details to a stranger? No. But I don’t think that reason alone makes what Fortuny did any better. Stupidity in others does not give you the right to take advantage of it for your own personal gain. I know that flies in the face of the general American capitalistic attitude, though.
Taking advantage of another person’s stupidity for your own personal gain shows a distinct level of selfishness and disregard for others’ wellbeing.
Whether selfishness is immoral or not depends on your belief system. A person’s views on this Fortuny case show how much we should trust them with our own personal information.
The problem with morals and ethics is that they are entirely too personally defined to be clear. It will always be an argument. My morals and ethics won’t exactly match anyone elses and vice versa. As a society we try and live with a loose semblance of agreement on morals and ethics but again, who agrees on everything?
Even the golden rule, as raine stated “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.â€? Does anyone really want to have done to them what I want done to me?? ;)
Morality and ethics and the law should not even be used in the same sentence. How’s abortion for a moral, ethical and legal fiasco? If he is ever charged with a crime of any sort, how it could ever fall under a moral or ethical crime would shock me.
What he did was violate trust. Trust that he never should have been given in the first place. If some stranger walked up to me on the street, handed me their name and address and work number, then informed me that they were performing deviant sexual acts with unknown men in the park after dark and please don’t tell my husband… am I morally obligated to keep my mouth shut?? Hell no! Could I make the argument that I am morally obligated to *tell* the husband because cheating is ethically wrong? Maybe I’m worried about STD’s. That’s ethical, right? I could inform the boss on the pretense that the company could get a bad name because of this person’s actions.
Maybe Fortuny’s ethics were focused on the uninformed and cheated on spouses of the people who answered that ad. But then, cheating on someone is really a personal decision whether it’s morally or ethically wrong, isn’t it? Some people really don’t see anything wrong with it. We aren’t meant to be monogamous, or so they say. Some people have blogs specifically dedicated to how and why they cheat. No morals or ethics being violated there.
If Fortuny violated your morals or ethics, then your morals and ethics differ greatly from mine. And I use “you” as a general, not a specific.
And Bacchus, the Pervert part wasn’t the derogatory part, the Pact of Secrecy was. There is no shame in my book about perversion. There is shame in being ashamed of it. ;-)
CageDude, you’ve ducked the question by focussing on motives. Motives are not relevant if the acts in question violate no defensible ethical rule. It’s that rule that nobody has been able to identify in this case. What did he do that he had an obligation or duty not to do?
Nobody seems to want to answer that question, they’d rather just vilify him.
The reason I thought that we would want to avoid a discussion on morality and ethics is that because it’s such a personal thing. It’s similar to discussing religion, or politics – we can yell at each other until we’re red in the face about what we believe in, but the only thing we’ll get out of it is angry. I didn’t believe that was what you had in mind, Bacchus. My apologies if I was wrong.
Raine, it’s possible to have a civilized discussion about ethics, but to do so, you can’t just say “this is my indefensible opinion, I don’t have an argument in support of it.” The shouting and red faces usually comes after some version of “this is my opinion, you’re obviously an asshole if you disagree.”
No, to have a civilized discussion about ethics, you have to come up with an argument about why the ethical rule you propose is the correct one. Or, if you want to condemn someone like Fortuny, you need to go further, and identify some commonly-accepted ethical rule that he violated. That’s what I’m inviting here. What I’ve seen is a lot of empty condemnation — “he’s a jerk, he’s an asshole” but no explanation of the commonly accepted ethical rules he supposedly broke. People say “he violated people’s privacy” but my point is we don’t have any sort of public consensus that folks should preserve the privacy of strangers, especially when those strangers are misbehaving, as many of the Fortuny “victims” arguably were.
That’s the ethical conversation I want to have, and it could be had in a civil fashion. That is, if folks would stop namecalling long enough. I’ve really been saddened that folks I respect in the blogging world have gone immediately to the namecalling without bothering to make an ethical argument, if they even have one.
I have to wonder if the question of morals and ethics would even be a question if the “victimsâ€? were female instead of male. Would we even be having this kind of discussion or would this go straight to court? To me, he was ethically/morally wrong if he broke the law. The problem comes from defining the law because they are so gray and can be interpreted more than one way. What he did was solely for the purpose of exposing people and not people breaking any sort of law, just people who were looking for a good time. Legally, the public disclosure of private facts is where he messes it all up but that is still fuzzy in definition but here is one:
“Private People’s Right of Privacy: using their name or picture without consent would cause embarrassment, shame, emotional distress, but this wouldn’t hold for people who seek out and depend on publicity. They don’t suffer emotional harm from public attention.” Found here where there’s actually a lot of information: http://www.cas.....html
The people who were exposed were not looking for/seeking out publicity and therefore being exposed publicly like that would be embarrassing, shameful, cause emotional distress etc. Some of the people who responded to the ad clearly don’t have morals of their own if they are willing to screw up their marriages looking for a sub on craigslist but they were under the guise of this being a private thing and not made public.
The biggest problem seems to be that privacy protection and invasion of privacy have yet to be fully defined in regards to the internet and based on what I’ve been looking at, he hasn’t violated any defined invasion of privacy laws. It does seem to violate the public disclosure of private facts though. If it came down to the ethics and morals issue being defined by whether or not he broke the law then you’d first have to define and identify the laws which I can’t seem to do. I gotta say I’m in agreement with you on this one.
I think this situation alone is going to set the legal precedent from this day forward. In the end it’s going to come down to a judge and lawyers to define the law and in essence decide whether or not this is ethically/morally wrong or not. I almost hope this becomes a catalytic case to help answer your questions as well as mine.
Chickpea, I appreciate the input, but I think you’ve got it exactly backwards when looking to the law for answers about morality and ethics.
There’s a lot of bad and stupid and evil laws in the world. By your logic, it’s unethical to use a vibrator because they are illegal in Texas / Singapore / North Korea / whereever. Just the fact that laws are different in different places is pretty good evidence that we can’t look to the law to figure out what’s morally right.
Why do things so quickly proceed to name calling?
For one thing, the definition of ethics being promoted by some of the respondents regards ethics as being so personal that they shouldn’t relate to anyone else’s very personal ethical ideas. This in itself is probably a fruitful topic for seperate discussion (Weren’t ethics and etiquette designed to assist us in our social interactions and therefore necessarily pertain to other people? And why do we use vocabulary such as “ethics” and “values” interchangably?).
However, if ethics are entirely up to each individual, then we are absolved of offering an excuse, apology, rationale, or any other explanation when we label people with names such as “jerk,” “stupid,” and so forth when our personal ethical limits are violated. Can we seriously expect other people to obey our own very personal set of ethical ideals if we expect it to be accepted that ours may differ slightly from others’ because of our individual principles? Since mental telepathy isn’t something that humans are known to possess as a general trait, then it appears that this type of solipsistic logic being offered is an excuse for the creation of drama.
It’s not a matter of expecting people to obey our expectations. Expecting a stranger to follow my moral code just because I have a moral code is rather silly.
But that doesn’t mean things stop being right or wrong.
In the case of private communication (and which I assumed was clear in my previous post, but maybe not :)), I think there has to be a valid reason for making it public, not a reason to keep it private. That should be assumed, since it is: private communication. That’s why I focused on motives.
It is entirely justified to expect some level of privacy in a letter or an email, because you are only sending it to one person. It isn’t smart to assume a stranger will honour that privacy, but the justification is still sound.
I don’t understand why people are so eager to absolve Fortuny from this simple obligation of common decency, especially in a case where the motives seemed so frivolous.
Is it okay to open other people’s mail? No, it is not addressed to you and not meant for you. Is it okay for your ISP’s system admin to read your email? No, it is a violation of privacy and trust. Is it okay to spill company trade secrets on the internet because you didn’t get that raise? No, they are not your trade secrets to spill.
Is it okay to make a letter addressed to you public? No, it is not your letter and not your content.
Why do we need a reason *not* to spread other people’s embarrassing information when there is no higher justification than personal amusement?
CageDude, you’re still assuming the thing I’m interested in exploring, when you call these communications private.
You say “you’re only sending it to one person” but my point is, when you are responding to a personals ad, you don’t know who you’re sending it to. All you have is an email address, you could be sending it to the New York Times, you don’t know where that email forwards to.
Nor do I agree that “only sending to one person” makes a thing private. You’re assuming an obligation on their part to keep it private; I’m asking why you assume that?
Just because it is a bad idea to assume your responses to a personals ad will be kept secret, doesn’t mean that it is OK for the recipient to publicize them.
I agree here with Violet that the recpient violated basic and privacy and communication rules of conduct.
You argue that since he never explicitly stated that the mails were kept private he didn’t do anything wrong by publicizing them.
I think that the expectation that responses to a personals ad will be kept private is something akin to a societal norm.
You don’t usually get to explicitly agree to most societal norms and still you are expected to follow them.
And most of these norms are are crucial for the normal function of society.
For example, imagine walking past a number of strangers on the street if you couldn’t expect them to not spit or hit you in the face, just because they can.
(there are also laws against this example, but I hope it gets the point across nevertheless. Laws are just societal norms enforced by the state.)
I also don’t agree on two other points you made:
You say that people “who weren’t violating any of life’s TOUs” weren’t hurt the the Massacre. Maybe that is true for the people directly involved in the Massacre (though I tend to disagree, because there might be a number of them who didn’t “violate life’s TOUs” but still didn’t like to be outed), but the “society” of online personal ads still suffers:
If one can’t expect that one’s responses to a personals ad to be kept private, many people – and not just the virtual flashers – will stop answering. Thus the effectivity of personal ads – that people will find someone with their matching kink – will suffer.
Also I disagree with your statement that ALL online behaviour is public. If I write an e-mail to – say – my girlfriend, this is online behaviour. Still, it is not public behaviour.
That said, I agree with you that a bad side effect of the norm I mentioned is that it encourages abusive behaviour like virtual flashing. Therefore, I want to assume a position in the middle, that from Usenet of former days: “Harassing mails will be posted”
Actually I’m not arguing that he did nothing wrong; I’m challenging people to identify what it was that he did that may have been wrong, and to explain what rules or promises they think he broke. Because so far, all I’ve seen is arm-waving and sputtering on that question.
I don’t think there is a “societal norm” that governs internet personals ads, yet. People have sort of assumed-by-analogy to old fashioned paper letters, that responses would be kept private. But is that wise? Is it — in a world full of virtual flashers and other inappropriate responses — a norm that we even want? I’m not convinced, and I don’t think there’s a consensus. I don’t understand why thoughtful people — people who normally get that old pre-internet rules don’t map perfectly into internet space — are so quick to assume that emailed personals should be treated as if they were lilac-scented paper love letters.
I think that most of the people who got so upset about the issue do in fact assume that there is a norm that governs internet personals, by analogy to paper personals.
And they are not alone. For example, a German court did rule that, essentially, the same rules apply to publication of email as for paper letters. (For reference: LG Köln, Az. 28 O 178/06)
(I acknowledge that Germans have a different legal system and also might have different views on privacy than Americans, but this is where I come from, so that might influence my views).
So, for me the answer to the question “what did rule did he break?” seems clear.
The other question is: was this a bad thing to do?
(which relates to your question “Is it […] a norm that we even want?”)
As I said, I’m not so clear on this issue.
I think it was a bad idea to publicize everything, even the answers that were not inappropriate, because it undermines trust to an extent that many people who would appropriate responses won’t write at all.
However I have no problems with outing flashers and other inappropriate behaviour, as a threat to these people might cut down offenses.
I also think the outrage wouldn’t have been half as strong if he had just published the inappropriate responses.
In response to your challenge to identify what rule Fortuny broke, here’s my take:
Thou shalt not cause unpleasantness for other human beings for no better reason than your own amusement.
I consider people who break this rule jerks, and I don’t think it’s dependent on context.
This is the same rule the virtual flashers you despise break. Some of Fortunys victims were undoubtably nasty people, sending nasty pictures. While I continue to beleive that Fotuny was literally “asking for” these responses, I’ll also concur with your apparent feeling that the flashers were “asking for” the outing Fortuny gave them.
But some of Fortunys respondents were appropriate, if incautious. Fortuny outed them too, apparently because he thought it was funny to be mean to strangers, or because he thinks people with different sexual tastes than his are automatically bad.
Fortuny did a mean thing to some people, at least some of whom seem fairly innocent. Since it’s not obvious, the burdens on him to give me a good reason if he doesn’t want me to think the’s a jerk. He hasn’t.
Well, 2short, that’s the best effort I’ve seen to date, for what it’s worth.
I do, however, think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it, too. If there are any “fairly innocent” in this story, how were they caused unpleasantness? If you can shrug and say “so what?”, where’s the unpleasantness? And if you can’t, are you “fairly innocent”?
You’re trying to have it both ways.
Bacchus, you’re arguing that if you have nothing to hide, you don’t have to care about privacy.
Not every secret is a damning one, nor a secret that should be exposed. You seem to be arguing in favour of no secrets at all, at least for stuff that even remotely touches the internet.
And while I agree that in a technical / ISP / TCP/IP / security sense, you are right to assume anything that touches the public internet is now public, I don’t agree that that technical fact translates directly into a moral one.
There are two sides of this issue as I see it: the technical side, and the human side. I’ve been arguing the human side. I know the technical side too: if you want something private, either don’t say it, or encrypt it massively and communicate with only trusted parties.
But invading privacy is not special to the internet. It is just as easy to open envelopes not addressed to you as it is to sniff communications on the internet. Easier actually. The fact it is easy to do doesn’t absolve anyone of the basic human decency of respecting another person’s privacy. Strangers included.
So regarding a personals ad sent to the New York Times, I think you are still focusing on the technical. The New York Times doesn’t post personal ads and such an event would be an aberration. Likewise, someone like Fortuny in the personals world is also an aberration.
In the context of a personal’s ad, the concept is clear: people are trying to meet for various purposes. Privacy is assumed by most people given the private nature of the requests. The original ad is public, the response is private.
Privacy is determined by the ownership of the content and the intent of publication. A letter or email to another individual in no way indicates intent of mass publication. Neither historically nor logically. The fact you can be tricked to send it to the New York Times doesn’t change the intent.
And as I said earlier, the reason privacy violation is wrong is that the content doesn’t belong to the recipient or the snooper. If you send me a letter, that content is yours, not mine.
Arguing that you can’t assume privacy because you didn’t protect yourself is like arguing you can’t assume someone will not steal your bike if you don’t lock it. While you’re right in the caution sense, you’re not right in the moral sense. Violating privacy is just as wrong as stealing a bike: neither thing belongs to you.
Bacchus-
Well, I think it’s perfectly possible to be into kinky BDSM sex, to not want ones every neighbor and coworker to know all the details of this, and to still not be guilty of anything. For example, I have various sex fantasies; I think there is nothing inherently wrong about them,and occasionally share them with like-minded adults (albeit more cautiously than Fortunys victims). Yet I still don’t want the details revealed to my parents, not to mention my kids.
If such a person responded (apropriately) to an improbable bdsm-related internet personal add with identifying personal information, that would make them stupid; but still innocent. It would be stupid because some strangers on the internet are immoral jerks. Exhibit A: Jason Fortuny.
Cadedude, I know exactly what I’m arguing, and that’s not it.
What I *am* saying is that it’s probably morally reprehensible to be pursuing online sexual hookups that you need to hide.
Nor do I agree with me that bits that you send to my inbasket belong to you. The freedom of bits that you dismiss as “technical” is more than that — it’s an actual good thing. Bits in my possession are mine, to do with as I will. That’s a good thing, it leads to human betterment on all fronts. There are some areas where the law disagrees with me, but I’m an anarchist, so I don’t care.
The only bits you *own* are the ones on your hard disk, securely encrypted under a key that only you know. Period.
2short, I agree with your first paragraphy, but not your second. If someone has a need or desire to keep their BDSM activities secret, responding with identifying info to an online personal is *not* appropriate, not private, and not innocent. Putting vital secrets into the hands of strangers, and then heaping those strangers with moral opproprium for not respecting the secrecy, isn’t just stupid, it’s selfish and wrong and it won’t work. If you’re broadcasting your secrets and your identity in a functionally public way, why should anybody else care more about your privacy than you do? Answer: they won’t. And I don’t see the recipient being the jerk in that scenario.
Fortuny posted a fraudulent ad claiming to be a submissive woman seeking a male partner. Let us imagine a hypothetical respondent, who took the ad at face value, and responded apropriately, but foolishly included real contact information. Fortuny published this information. You suggest there is nothing wrong with doing so, and no one should think ill of Fortuny, because the victim committed the heinous crime of admitting to a sex fantasy he wouldn’t be perfectly happy to discuss with his grandma. If he wasn’t happy to discuss his sex fantasies with grandma, he shouldn’t email them to someone he doesn’t know, because he should obviously expect them to be published, and for people to make active attempts to track down more details about him, and embass him as much as possible. Therefore, the person who posted the lying ad to trick him into sending info from which he could be tracked down and embarassed is not doing anything wrong in the least.
I find that position bordering on the ridiculous, but what really gets me is the contrast with your other related position…
Someone posts an ad on a forum notorious for offensive pictures. Said ad depicts a woman bending over, spreading her butt-cheeks to display her distended anus. Upon (voluntarily!) opening emails sent in response to this ad, any reasonable person is clearly going to expect to see pictures of dicks. Yet in this case, you condemn the people who fulfill the expectation. What reasonable expectation of not seeing dicks in those emails did the ad poster have? None. Yet you think the dick-pic senders are bad guys. You even particularly scorn anyone who suggests “she” “asked for” exposure to dick-pics. Well, “she” was Jason Fotuny, who carefully selected the ad that said “send me dick pics” as loud as possible. Dick-pics are what he wanted, and what the original poster of the ad wanted unless they were a complete idiot. He absolutely, non-metaphorically, asked for it.
I mean, is this really what you’re suggesting? People should be free to post goatse-pic ads without fear of being subjected to any responses they may find distasteful; But if they send a reasonable response to an ad in an adult forum, they should have no objection if details of their sexual tastes are forwarded to Grandma?
Ah, you’re in the “she asked for it” camp. Next!
“I’m challenging people to identify what it was that he did that may have been wrong, and to explain what rules or promises they think he broke.”
OK, I’ll bite.
Ethical rule 1: Don’t lie. Fortuny lied when he claimed to be a submissive woman.
Ethical rule 2: You do not have the right to publicize other people’s personal information, even if they choose to reveal that information to you. The only exceptions we normally make to this rule are for journalists and the like, and only where there is a clear public interest argument for the revelation.
Ethical rule 3: Don’t copy material which other people own the copyright to. Remember that copyright in a letter resides with the author; you do not have the right to republish a letter verbatim. Again, we occasionally make exceptions to this rule for investigative journalists, but if you want to claim Fortuny is an investigative journalist out to serve the public good I think you’ll have a hard time.
Ethical rule 4: Don’t punish the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Yes, there were *some* people Fortuny outed who were behaving unethically. There were also plenty of people who had done nothing morally wrong–they weren’t cheating on anyone. For example, Fortuny hounded one guy even after the guy’s wife pointed out that she knew all about his exploits and that they had an open relationship.
Ethical rule 5: Two wrongs don’t make a right. Even if all Fortuny’s victims were behaving unethically, that *still* wouldn’t justify *his* breach of ethics.
Now on to a few statements by Bacchus:
“it’s probably morally reprehensible to be pursuing online sexual hookups that you need to hide.”
Bullshit. I don’t think there’s anything morally reprehensible about two single men wanting to hook up for sex–but there are plenty of parts of the USA where they would definitely want to hide what they were doing. People *do* get beaten up for being gay, on a regular basis.
I could counter-claim “It is probably morally reprehensible to be publishing material which requires that you need to hide your identity.” You seem to go to elaborate lengths to maintain your anonymity, don’t you see your hypocrisy in doing so?
“Nor do I agree with me that bits that you send to my inbasket belong to you. […] There are some areas where the law disagrees with me, but I’m an anarchist, so I don’t care.”
If you wish to argue that there is no moral basis for any kind of copyright law, that’s fine, but you should recognize that your opinion is probably a minority one; and that furthermore, you are still being presented with a perfectly valid moral argument, even if it’s a moral rule you personally choose not to follow.
“If there are any ‘fairly innocent’ in this story, how were they caused unpleasantness? ”
The wives of the married men who were outed have been publically humiliated by having their husbands’ infidelity publicized worldwide. They were innocent victims.
“You say ‘you’re only sending it to one person’ but my point is, when you are responding to a personals ad, you don’t know who you’re sending it to.”
Umm, they are called Personals. They are personal advertisements placed by persons seeking personal responses. That’s why it is reasonable to assume that the communication is of a personal nature.
Mathew, that’s the best effort to date. I’m not much pursuaded, but you didn’t expect that. A few comments:
#1: “Don’t lie” in the internet personals context is honored more often in the breach than in the observance. If Fortuny’s a jerk for breaking that one, he’s got plenty of company, including most of his detractors and most everybody who’s ever spent any time writing stuff for internet consumption. A non-starter in this context.
#2, #3 — I disagree for reasons I’ve already explained in detail here.
#4 – I don’t know where punishment comes into this. And, as I’ve argued, there are no “innocents” here.
$5 — a nonsequitur in a converstaion about whether Fortuny breached any ethics of note.
You make a good point about having good reasons for wanting to be discrete about morally acceptable behavior. But perhaps in that case, sending personal info to strangers isn’t your wisest course.
As for my own psuedonymous publication, that’s been thrown in my face before, in the first thread about this. But I’m not being hypocritical — I use a psuedonym for reasons of discretion and convenience, but I’m fully aware that it provides no form of strong security. Any sufficiently motivated person could easily track me down and “out” me, and I’m fully willing for that to happen. I cheerfully accepted that before I wrote my first blog post, it will be no big deal when it happens, there’s no one in my life who will be more than mildly disapproving, there will be no harm to anywone, and you sure as hell won’t catch me bitching about it when it happens. It’s inevitable, just as it’s inevitable that responses to online personals will not be kept private.
Arguments from copyright law are not “perfectly valid moral arguments” — they are legal arguments, which is another sort of animal entirely. “It’s wrong because it’s illegal” isn’t moral reasoning, it’s just a recitation of indoctrinated serfdom. In another era, we called another version of this idea “the divine right of kings” — which, of course, is today recognized as arrant nonsense.
And in conclusion, I’m perfectly horrified by your claim that “The wives of the married men who were outed have been publically humiliated by having their husbands’ infidelity publicized worldwide. They were innocent victims.” Sure they were — victims of their husband’s infidelity. To lay their pain and shame at Fortuny’s feet is a disgusting failure to identify the pertinent moral actor.
I was thinking about this again, about why Fortuny might be considered to be a “jerk.”
A large part of the “problem” is the general ethical idea that in order to pass other people’s sexual boundaries, explicit consent must be given.
In a sense, these people feel as if they have been (at worst) raped. If you go home with a lover with expectations of a private sexual experience, you simply don’t expect the room to be set up so that roommates can watch. Should you have asked, “Is your roommate home?” But the house is dark and silent, and you assume the two of you are truly alone, so you go ahead with the sexual experience. The fact that the roommate was watching and perhaps recording your sexual acts is revealed to you after you’re done. Were you a dummy for not remembering to ask about the roommate before you did it, is he a jerk for simply not telling you?
I didn’t describe that to discuss whether it was legal or not, so much as it’s an example concerning the ethics of consent. Even if some of the respondents to Fortuny were not serious about meeting up/engaging in any kind of sex, they probably believe that their action was still offering a sexual/private part of themselves to a singular/private person, and if the respondent wanted to take things further (including sharing the info publicly), because it’s sexual in nature, there would have to be consent.
People don’t expect to be raped, metaphorically or literally, when offering a sexual piece of themselves. They expect others to apply the idea of consent, **even if they aren’t applying it themselves.**
In light of later comments, I want to clarify that my arguments about the ownership of content were not referring to copyright. I was making a moral argument about privacy. I avoided mentioning copyright on purpose.
Copyright (generally) deals with content that has been published widely. Privacy deals with content that has not been published, or published without permission.
I do not consider writing a letter to an individual as publishing content.
C.B., a thoughtful comment. But I think you’re still missing one of the essential points I’m trying to make.
In your “alone with a lover in a silent house” example, you have an expectation of privacy, and I agree with you that the expectation is a reasonable one. Breaching it would be, and is, sleazy.
In the current example, it’s clear that many of the personals respondents similarly had an expectation of privacy. One of my points is that such an expectation is not reasonable, precisely because of the public nature of anything you send to strangers on the internet. There’s no reason to expect your privacy to be protected, though many people mistakenly do.
For those of you who are pursuaded by laws, some states have laws against “surreptitious videotaping” — laws aimed at the folks who conceal cameras in hotel rooms, beach changing rooms, public toilets, etc. Those laws usually contain language limiting their scope to cameras in areas “where the subject of the photography has a reasonable expectation of privacy”, to prevent criminalizing photography on, say, public beaches where people sometimes go topless.
That’s what I find so fascinating about this whole dispute. People were putting an amazing amount of personal information “out there”, so much that it’s clear they probably did have an expectation of privacy. And that expectation is so astonishingly unrealistic and unreasonable, as indeed Fortuny’s actions prove. This is not an abberation, this is what happens to bits when you let them off their leash. And people clearly don’t like that fact; indeed, they are so unhappy that they’ll get angry with anybody they can find who is handy rather than confront the reality of digital information flows.
Bacchus, I’m very new here but that’s never stopped me from jumping in the deep end before… *grin*
I think that people have a range of very good reasons to be outraged by this “prank” but few people are conversant enough in the language of ethics to articulate just *why* they are outraged.
Unfortunately, I am not well qualified to articulate the ethics here, either.
“Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness; wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness.”
–John Stuart Mill
It seems to me that we rely on learned ethical behavior to be able to be in society with one another. Just because the ethical “rules” aren’t generally articulated doesn’t make them less powerful.
For instance, most of us learn at a fairly early age not to point and laugh when we see someone that amuses us walking down the street. We learn that it’s not polite, and if we are evolved we also learn that it’s hurtful to the other person.
We also learn not to tell secrets that our intimates share with us, and for the same reasons.
Both of those examples have their limitations, and it’s the responsibility of the person telling the secret or walking down the street in funny clothes to know that they might get betrayed or mocked.
Even *with* that foreknowledge that the ethics might be breached, they still have every right and reason to be hurt by the behavior.
Someone wrote about Brad Pitt’s performance in ’12 Monkeys,’ “Just because you *can* do it, Brad, doesn’t mean you *should* do it!”
As someone who answers personal ads from time to time, I *do* have an expectation of privacy and will be hurt, outraged, and amazed if anyone breaches that expectation.
On the other hand, I realize that I’m taking a chance and I weigh the risks against the potential benefits.
“But I do agree with Violet that folks who were using Craigslist in an ethically appropriate way -snip– these people couldn’t be hurt in the Massacre, and weren’t.”
I couldn’t disagree more about this point. Virtually everyone chooses what parts of their lives to share with others and what parts to stay private.
In the same way, most of us have sections of our lives that we separate out and don’t share with everyone. I don’t talk about my sexual escapades at work because it’s not appropriate, but I also don’t share them with my mother because she doesn’t need to know. It would make her uncomfortable and it would make *me* uncomfortable.
That doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of being who I am, it just means I take some care about who and how I share these things.
I know people who have lost jobs or friends because the “wrong” people found out about their activities. The people who were “outed” against their wills face the same kinds of consequences due to the very public nature of the “prank.”
Bacchus: The ethical violation is clear. The messages were sent under the implicit assumption that they were to be kept private. Online participation in a public forum is by definition public. E-mails are no more public than letters.
Now, you might say that there is nothing about letters that are inherently private. Yet, letters are protected by law until the recipient gets them. There is an assumption that the letters are private, and most correspondence works using this assumption as a basis. If the replies to the personals would have been meant to be public, they would have been posted publically, such as at a bbs.
Markus, you haven’t come to grips with my argument that the “implicit assumption” was unreasonable.
Obviously the assumption existed, or folks wouldn’t be outraged. But it’s not a reasonable assumption in the internet context.
Well suppose that Fortuny had done this by using a newspaper personal as his vehicle. People would have written him letters, and he would have them posted them on the internet or by taking out a full-page ad in the newspaper.
Surely you agree with me that the implicit assumption is reasonable in this case. People expect personals and letters in general to be kept private.
Now, tell me how the internet magically makes the same behaviour ethical. It doesn’t. The same behaviour is still just as unethical as it was before. Sure, it is easier to copy and post the information, but that doesn’t make it any less wrong.
You claim that expecting the same standards to apply on the net is unreasonable. I would counter with the fact that how right or wrong a deed is does not depend on the vehicle that was used commit the deed in question. To hold people to the same behavoriall standarrd and expect a certain courtesy of them on- as well ass offline is not unreasonable in my opinion. I do understand your argument, but I do not agree with it.
You and I may both agree that it’s foolish to post one’s personal information to someone you don’t trust. This may be so. However, that does not mean that anyone has the moral right to publish what you’ve written to them in confidence. Just because you can do something does not make it right.
So, where is the harm in all this? As others have posted, this is a multipronged issue. The first is the people this directly affects, namely the poor saps that took Fortuny’s bait. These may be divided in two distinct camps: Those that were harmed because they were exposed to loved ones, coworkers or acquintances, and those that were harmed by losing their faith in the personal system.
I am sure that marriages were wrecked because of this episode. Perhaps those that posted under the nose of their wives deserved it, but I would still not like Fortuny to be the judge, jury and executioner in that case. Besides them, there are those who’s lives were made just a little bit harder by being outed. In some conservative circles, BDSM is not merely frowned upon but practicioner may find themselves ostracized completely.
Besides those that were directly harmed, there is the larger question of people being more wary of using personal sites. This may not seem like a problem for you, but I think people should be free to pursue happiness whichever way they choose as long as they hurt noone. If someone is discouraged from answering a personal due to this debacle, it is a clear loss.
Well, that’s an argument anyway. I’ve explained about six times why I disagree, so I guess there’s nothing to be gained from repeating myself.
On your last point, I think it cuts both ways. Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all the virtual flashers and unavailable adulterers will be, too. So the overall personals experience may *improve* for the person placing the ad.
I think we both agree on a few key points: namely, that it is foolish not to take any precaution when putting your personal information out there, and that it is not a condoneable action to publish said information without a good cause.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest.
You say that “Some decent folks may be discouraged, but all [bad persons] will be, too.” This is somewhat of a fallacy. I see no evidence that the virtual flashers will be proportionately more discouraged than ordinary folks. Intuitively this might seem so, but to assume it is a fallacy.
Fortuny’s prank might have been a good one had he just withheld all of the sensitive information and just posted select clips with the purpose of getting a chuckle or two. Doing it by posting everything out there is just irresponsible.
I’m afraid we don’t even agree on the second of your “key points”, Markus. I don’t agree that anyone needs “a good cause” to publish stuff that strangers send them over the internet.
#1. Again, “He did it too!” does not constitute a legitimate excuse.
#4. The argument made by many, yourself included (or so it seemed to me), is that those who were committing adultery or misusing company resources deserved no sympathy for the treatment they got from Fortuny; that it was just punishment for their crimes. I was addressing that point.
#5. Clearly not a nonsequitur, and worthy of mention as you yourself then attempted the same rationalization in your response to #1.
I already discussed the issue of legal vs moral arguments. Laws are enacted in
part to codify society’s moral judgements; it’s trivial to reel off a list of
laws that exist purely because someone had a moral code that said something,
and got it written into law. In fact, UK copyright law explicitly refers to
morality, talking about the “moral rights” of the creators of artworks.
Hence, the existence of law is at least circumstantial evidence that there is a
corresponding moral principle that is widely held. In the case of copyright,
I believe that you will find that most people believe that morally, someone
who creates an artistic work has the right to stop other people copying it and
selling the copies, meaning that there is a fundamental moral basis to the
existence of copyright law. (Of course, there are specifics of current
copyright law that may not be entirely supported by public morality.)
Anyway, you asked for moral reasons, you got them. I don’t think that any of
the moral principles I outlined are unusual ones. The fact that you don’t share
the same common moral code doesn’t alter the fact that you were presented with
what you asked for.
If you meant to ask for moral reasons according to your
moral code why Fortuny was wrong, well, you should have said so.
I doubt you’d have gotten any replies, since you already said that he was in
the right according to your moral code.